2016 US Presidential Election Thread - VII
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
It was all PUMAs back then.
Party
Unity
My
Ass
In reference to the HRC supporters who felt she was robbed of the nomination by math. There was talk that they would revolt and not vote for O. Then Hillz gave a great speech at the convention, wounds were healed, O won big, and the nation slowly started to pull itself out of the ditch it had been run into by Bush/Cheney.
I see a lot of that history repeating itself.
Party
Unity
My
Ass
In reference to the HRC supporters who felt she was robbed of the nomination by math. There was talk that they would revolt and not vote for O. Then Hillz gave a great speech at the convention, wounds were healed, O won big, and the nation slowly started to pull itself out of the ditch it had been run into by Bush/Cheney.
I see a lot of that history repeating itself.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
If Hilary wins the nomination, I sure hope Bernie at least gives a nice speech in support of her. He has been pretty decent for the most part in the debates and I don't know that he's necessarily taken any real cheap shots. It's more the supporters that have taken to social media to make Hilary look like the worst human of all time.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
I totally agree. Other than a few slip ups, Bernie himself has behaved admirably in this election.
Obama came across as a leader. Clinton has that aspect to her....but when it comes to charisma, there was no comparison at all. She stood no chance.
I believed Obama could make change happen as President.
I don't believe that with Bernie. If Clinton continues the Obama legacy, that is not a bad thing. We have seen so much progress under him, and just imagine what he could have done without the obstructionists in congress.
With Bernie Bros, it just seems like a bit....naive? That USA will all of a sudden turn into Denmark, or even Canada overnight. Our infrastructure is just too massive, and complex to change right away. The ACA is a step towards single payer. We have pulled out of most of the wars in the Middle East, instead focusing more on drones, and special forces to do the work. Obama has made relations better with the world, something that was destroyed under W.
Bernie has brought some ideas to the forefront of the discussion. I applaud him for that, but his inability to provide real specifics, and complete lack of any interest in Foreign Policy has me behind Clinton.
I'll still vote for him if he's the nominee of course. The real focus should be on getting Hillary or Bernie into the WH so we can get more progressives on the SC.
I believed Obama could make change happen as President.
I don't believe that with Bernie. If Clinton continues the Obama legacy, that is not a bad thing. We have seen so much progress under him, and just imagine what he could have done without the obstructionists in congress.
With Bernie Bros, it just seems like a bit....naive? That USA will all of a sudden turn into Denmark, or even Canada overnight. Our infrastructure is just too massive, and complex to change right away. The ACA is a step towards single payer. We have pulled out of most of the wars in the Middle East, instead focusing more on drones, and special forces to do the work. Obama has made relations better with the world, something that was destroyed under W.
Bernie has brought some ideas to the forefront of the discussion. I applaud him for that, but his inability to provide real specifics, and complete lack of any interest in Foreign Policy has me behind Clinton.
I'll still vote for him if he's the nominee of course. The real focus should be on getting Hillary or Bernie into the WH so we can get more progressives on the SC.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
No one thinks we're going to turn into Denmark overnight. But I'd like to see us make at least some progress. Now I don't see Obama as having spun the wheels like some do. But I do see Clinton as being that. Clinton is to the right of Obama. The only reason I'd vote for Hillary would be because the alternative is worse and because maybe we'll get a decent Supreme Court justice out of it. Even that isn't a foregone conclusion with her, but I'll take my chances when the alternatives are anyone in the GOP.
womanfish
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Beal has become my favorite interferencer after reading his posts here and the SOE forum.
I agree with what you say here.
I began as a big Bernie fan. But after a few months, i got to the point where I was just hearing Bernie say the exact same thing ,over and over. And that same thing unfortunately was not, here's my plan, that i think will be able to be pushed through congress, to get to the point where we need to be by the middle of my second term.
Nope. It was. State Problem. Give statistics on how bad the problem is. Maybe spice it up and say other countries don't have this problem. and Finally end with - This needs to change...
Then i saw Hillary coming out with plans that just plain made more sense to me. AND had the added bonus of possibly passing, or even probably passing.
Yes, we all agree. There are problems and they need to change. I think Bernie supporters sometimes have this notion that Hillary supporters don't have most of the same end goals in mind. We just know that no one can stroll right in and like Beal said make the US into Denmark.
And to add to that. The US does have a lot of problems. But hell, I still love it. And we do have a capitalist/quasi-socialist system, that in some ways is better and some ways worse.
I don't want to be Denmark, or even Canada. I do however, want minimum wage increases, paid family leave, LGBT rights, equal pay laws, overturning of Citizens United, more banking/wall street regs, a big shift to renewables, and much tougher gun laws, etc... etc...
But I want someone that has the ability to get us there, even if only 40% or 60%, and then the next president gets us the rest of the way. I am fearful of a , I want instant change, all or nothing, and the almost certain result would be... nothing.
I do still like Bernie, although lately with the whole, rigged delegate system thing, and calling Hillary unqualified, he has started to wear on me. But I would vote for him in a heartbeat over the GOP.
womanfish
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Actually she voted 93% of the time the same as Bernie and Warren. quite of a few of those votes that weren't the same, was Hillary voting more liberally than Bernie on gun laws. She was ranked the 11th most liberal senator, Left of Obama.
You know one thing, her supreme court pick would be pro-women, pro-choice, pro-LGBT, and anti-gun. That's good enough for me.
Mack_Again
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
I don't think even if Hillary is the president, I don't think she can't get that much done with this congress full of obstructive republicans.
womanfish
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Agreed. But i do think that getting debt free college passed will be a good million times more likely than getting free college passed (i also happen to think it's a better plan)
I think that getting 12 bucks an hour Fed min. wage will be a million times easier than a 15 min. wage increase. (I also happen to think this is a much more well thought out plan by HRC)
I also think that Hillary seems to be genuinely admired and loved by her fellow Dems in the House and Senate. She also gets unexpected praise from Repubs on just how tough, knowledgeable and experienced she is to get things done.
I'm afraid that Bernie has burned some bridges. Labeling every superdelagate or any Dem that has gotten donations from lobbyists, or millionaires, or had a superPac, a sell-out, or "establishment".
I think there will be some animosity towards him for the broad brush he has used to paint those that are necessary to get things pushed through.
Moonlit_Angel
Blue Crack Addict
Neither have I. Mind, I wasn't here in 2008 'cause of lack of internet access for a time, so I have no idea if anyone did use that phrase here.
But it's not a term I heard anywhere else, either.
others have said this in here and elsewhere.
The GOP has ignored Bernie, focusing 99% of their efforts towards Clinton. The thing is, with Clinton, what else can they possibly come up with? BENGAZI!!! EMAILS!!! MURDERER!!!!!
Bernie doesn't have his gender or race to fight back with (the GOP have been absolutely racists in their attacks against Obama, and they don't tend to do well with critiques of women....). guess you could go with ageism....
My point is, the GOP would destroy Bernie. They're the group that made John Kerry a coward instead of a war hero
The GOP has ignored Bernie, focusing 99% of their efforts towards Clinton. The thing is, with Clinton, what else can they possibly come up with? BENGAZI!!! EMAILS!!! MURDERER!!!!!
Bernie doesn't have his gender or race to fight back with (the GOP have been absolutely racists in their attacks against Obama, and they don't tend to do well with critiques of women....). guess you could go with ageism....
My point is, the GOP would destroy Bernie. They're the group that made John Kerry a coward instead of a war hero
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
They might make Bernie Jewish.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Oh wait, role reversal. It's now very republican to love Israel.
BigMacPhisto
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
- Joined
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- 6,351
Just stop with the pretending like Clinton will somehow pass any of the significant legislation she promotes. And Neither will Bernie. Republican obstructionists mean none of it is going to happen until they no longer control the House. End of.
What I like about Bernie is that I would rather approach the minimum wage issue from a stronger starting point. You begin the discussion at $15 and if there's even at all enough of a public groundswell (which, let's face it, is more likely if Bernie is President and more likely if he's arguing for a higher minimum wage than $12) then maybe you can somehow twist enough GOP arms and get some sort of agreement, even if it's like $11. By starting the discussion at $12, you're barely leaving any wiggle room between where a lot of states already are with their own minimum wages and where the Republicans might possibly agree to bump things up under the right circumstances. Coming out of things with a $10 minimum wage will barely effect anyone.
And to say that $12 is good enough is just a slap in the face to the American people. $15 is considered for a reason because it's the number that could help elevate working families to get comfortably above the poverty line. $12 still keeps you broke and if you had to think of why Clinton supports that, I'm certain it's more to do with the people underwriting her campaign than some belief in neo-liberal economics and the never proven charge of how "minimum wage leads to more unemployment".
But, again, nothing infuriates me more than people calling Clinton's plans realistic compared to Sanders. Neither is really going to conceivably happen given the Republicans in the House, but I damn sure prefer the snowball's chance in hell of Bernie energizing his supporters to volunteer, march and inform others over Clinton's chances which are absolutely zilch. There is no downside to taking a far-leftist stance as it gives you room to argue for a compromise with Republicans, and if a compromise can't be met, you look good for sticking to your principles. It's what it took Obama five years to learn after he continually watered down key legislation for Republican votes that never happened.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
so get your boy Bernie to get off his ass and take all his enthusiasm and money and help the Democrats win back the Senate.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Or you galvanize the right...
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Oh cmon. You know the minute Sanders leaves the race he will return to irrelevance and go the way of Ron Paul.
Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous that you guys are arguing over this? "Your boy Bernie" sounds so sports team politics. Blah blah blah Bernie Bros, Clintonistas, Obama Boys, PUMA, whatever label you want to slap. Those attempts to label an entire group of people as one are a weak way of attacking a campaign. I'd reserve those labels for something pathetic, like Donald Trump's followers. As for every other campaign, I think it's just weak. Enough already.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
So only one extreme group is deserving of labels?
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
no, not really. i don't think it's ridiculous, and i think you're focusing a little too much on a small aside. i think these labels, whether a good thing or not, do exist, and are used in political language, so it's not surprising that they're reflected in here as well. though i never heard "Obama Boys" before.
i also don't think Sanders is going to fade into irrelevance. he's accomplished way, way more than Ron Paul, and raised way, way, way more money.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Only something worth disregarding entirely is worth labeling. You fail to listen when you start generalizing and labeling.
I'm okay with failing to listen to the Trump campaign. Because it's a fucking joke. Ted Cruz's campaign is an extreme group... I don't think labeling them is fair either. I still listen to what he has to say. For as much as I think he'd be a worse president than Trump, he's not a joke. Real [scary] ideas come out of his mouth.
Bluer White
New Yorker
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
I've never heard "Obama boys" either. I merely included it so I wasn't singling you out. I think sticking labels out there is just a way of disregarding the legitimacy of a campaign based upon the followers it holds. Almost to suggest that you can't vote republican due to a racist base, as opposed to the more important racist platform.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Exactly. And in case you haven't noticed there's a population of Bernie supports that's all they do; generalize, label, condescend, and are isolated in their information. They are the left's version of Breitbart followers. Why should I listen to them if I'm not going to listen to Trump's followers?
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LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Did you honestly just make a point about how 'if they do it, I should do it, too?'
You entirely missed the point. The stereotype of a Trump supporter is a joke, but so is Donald Trump himself.
The stereotype of a Sanders supporter is a joke, but Bernie Sanders isn't a joke. But, you're refusing to take him seriously due to his supposedly condescending supporters. That's just stupid. Not all of his supporters are condescending. If that much is true, and Sanders himself is not a joke, then it's not a negligible decision to generalize.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
I'd say it's the Clinton supporters who are condescending.
The Bernie Bros are aggressive and naive and entitled all at the same time.
All of them. To a one.
The Bernie Bros are aggressive and naive and entitled all at the same time.
All of them. To a one.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Woah, where did you get the idea that I've written him off, and especially because of his supporters?
No one is calling all supporters "bros", but there's a loud vocal group where the shoe fits. They're annoying and they're doing Sanders a disservice.
And I have no idea where you got 'if they do it, I should do it, too?'
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I have to say it's a bit odd to me that some of you seem so utterly obsessed with supporters of a particular candidate, when the only real criticism is that they are irritating (Hillary fans condescending/Bernie Bros aggressive naive kids). I mean...who cares?
It's one thing to be terrified of Trump's supporters who are openly racist and inciting violence, but on the Dem side, it's basically politically passionate people (agree with them or not) who may take it a step too far and who have the bad luck of living in an age of social and digital media such that their behaviour appears amplified.
It's one thing to be terrified of Trump's supporters who are openly racist and inciting violence, but on the Dem side, it's basically politically passionate people (agree with them or not) who may take it a step too far and who have the bad luck of living in an age of social and digital media such that their behaviour appears amplified.
Moonlit_Angel
Blue Crack Addict
Agreed, anitram.
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