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Old 04-20-2016, 06:40 PM   #976
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isn't she supporting wars (or interventions) in Syria and Libya?

Are you asking or are you talking about a war with Syria?


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Old 04-20-2016, 06:42 PM   #977
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Are you asking or are you talking about a war with Syria?


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I was asking whether you know it or not, kinda.
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Old 04-20-2016, 06:43 PM   #978
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If she's hawkish against the Saudis, hell yeah. Just no war.
but is it our job to fix their wrongdoing, though?
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Old 04-20-2016, 06:52 PM   #979
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wait so if you guys support Hillary, are you guys okay with she being kinda hawkish in Middle East? i just wonder
I'm not exactly wild about the idea of more wars or invasions or whatever in that part of the world, no, mainly because I think we hurt more often with our attempts to do something than we actually wind up helping...

...but I also think the Middle East is one of those issues where we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, and that'd be the case no matter who's in power.
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Old 04-20-2016, 06:56 PM   #980
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...but I also think the Middle East is one of those issues where we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, and that'd be the case no matter who's in power.
...yeah I kinda happen to agree. I have this complicated feeling toward hawk policy as Japanese gov't is becoming meaninglessly hawkish despite the fact that country has so much problems than outer threats (i think there's thread somewhere about people committing crimes in Japan because life inside the jail is better than the normal life). I know Hillary isn't stupid and she won't create "unnecessary" wars, but if she supported kinda hawkish plans in middle east including Libya and Syria....i don't know about that. it's my personal thing, so you can argue with me all you want, but considering what happened in Iraq.....I can't really say much.


also, Im self-claimed liberal so I am biased. i know that.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:10 PM   #981
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Again, this line of thinking is just completely wrong. Clinton can't move any legislation that the left finds dear to their hearts until Republicans are out of congress. There's no compromise legislation when the right won't even budge an inch.
Which is why Clinton is making efforts in reclaiming the House and Senate. Whereas Sanders is doing not much and is even railing against the efforts of Clinton and the Democratic Party to try. Yes, I'm talking about the fundraisers she's having for the Democratic Party and whoever will be the nominee for them (which is most likely Clinton). You need a political infrastructure (which costs money) to get the votes. And to get legislation passed into law, you need other politicians too who support you. You can't do it on your own, which sometimes seems like something Sanders is not aware of (or not willing to accept).
Hence, why I think that Clinton is a better candidate than Sanders. Though for the fate of the rest of the world I would also hope that Sanders wins the general election, should he gets nominated.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:20 PM   #982
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but is it our job to fix their wrongdoing, though?

Where on earth did I say that?

You can't just be anti-Clinton for the sake of being anti-Clinton. Not everything she does is automatically evil or wrong. I'm liking watching our relationship with terrorist harboring Wahhabi Saudis crumble. I hope that we find a healthy relationship with the Iranians in the process.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:29 PM   #983
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This just feels hopeless. It's all or nothing with you it seems, if you can't have the full progressive agenda passed, then nothing is good enough.

We don't operate that way. Obama had the public option in the ACA to start and had a majority in both houses, and yet it was stripped out. He couldn't even get what was the closest thing to Universal Healthcare passed within his own party. Why would Bernie succeed? Especially when he's been an Independent his whole career?
It's not "all or nothing" for me. It's the fact that Clinton supporters argue that she can get things done when she truly can't with a Republican House. It's nothing or nothing, really, but I would rather have the person on the far left being the one to have no legislative accomplishments in office.

My argument for Sanders is that there would be "more" even if his positions were further to the left. He'd have more people marching in the streets to protect abortion rights or raise the minimum wage and thus there would be more pressure on House Republicans to cave, even if it was just a small increase in the minimum wage, for example. The movement could certainly help although, in essence, you still probably would have almost no success with the current dimwits in congress.

The big irony in Clinton and her supporters calling Bernie a fantasist is that the biggest fantasy of all is the belief from her camp that she can actually accomplish anything through congress while she's President. We've already seen the wall they've put up against Obama, so why exactly would things suddenly change?

At least Sanders has a plan to have millions of politically active people to try and accomplish his goals. Clinton isn't going to call for marches or phone-banking of Republican House members. She's just going to get her party to introduce some half-assed legislation that Paul Ryan will refuse to take to the floor and then she'll point fingers.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:34 PM   #984
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Which is why Clinton is making efforts in reclaiming the House and Senate.
I don't know if you're aware of the intricacies of the current House situation, but it's literally impossible for Democrats to take it back given all the gerrymandering that has gone on...even Clinton's own campaign team dialed back the expectation of reclaiming the House months and months ago and it's kind of sad that they actually ever believed they could accomplish the task.

But that "leak" from insiders around her talking about her wanting to win back Congress exposes exactly why she wants to have a Democratic House...because without it, the President is resigned to accomplish nothing of major importance. Clinton knows this and I'm certain she doesn't expect to be able to get us the next step on health care or Wall Street regulation (as if she'd even bother with that one) while Republicans control the House.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:41 PM   #985
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I just like that you're going to waste your vote because Bernie didn't get the nomination.

Yes, a two party system blows. Yes, Bernie is ideologically closer to my views than Clinton. But let's be realistic here - and I'm not just preaching from the Land of Instant Runoffs and Honey without an appreciation of voting in a system that doesn't allow you to give preferences. I suck it up when I vote in New Zealand and vote Labour on the half of the ballot that is first past the post (for local seats), even though I prefer the Greens (and vote for them on the party list half, because thank fuck for Mixed Member Proportional). There's no way in hell the Green candidate is even going to be competitive, let alone be victorious, and the risk of splitting the left vote and letting a right-wing candidate win is unconscionable to me. Same principle here. A vote that splits the American left is a vote for Trump/Cruz/Fuckwaddle McShittery.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:45 PM   #986
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I'm not particularly fussed about Sanders losing, but the apologism for Hillary, hoo boy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_Again View Post
wait so if you guys support Hillary, are you guys okay with she being kinda hawkish in Middle East? i just wonder
It goes further than just the Middle East, and I'm not necessarily talking military intervention.
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:41 PM   #987
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isn't she supporting wars (or interventions) in Syria and Libya?

Also, she's supporting current Israel gov't, that's kinda insane.
She's whatever they want her to be
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:59 PM   #988
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She's whatever they want her to be
I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:00 PM   #989
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I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?
Well, she's a liberal. Maybe a yes woman, but a liberal for sure.
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:07 PM   #990
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I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?
I've always felt she was the very definition of liberal.
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