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Old 07-30-2016, 11:13 AM   #646
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One of my good friends (though haven't seen him in years) has been a Trump supporter since the start.

He is educated, but does lean towards the conservative meme attacks on the Clintons/Liberals. But he does have good in him....I can sense it....

Anyway, his support for Trump is nothing more than a disdain of our current system. It is broken, both sides are to blame so he feels the solution is to elect someone who's an outsider. The best case is Trump brings new ideas and isn't beholden to lobbyists. Worst case the system crashes and what comes next is more ideal.

I can completely understand this line of thinking, and from a high level, it even makes some sense.

But it's a fantasy and nothing more. There are serious consequences that this mindset doesn't account for, or worse, they don't care abut the damage done


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Old 07-30-2016, 11:21 AM   #647
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One of my good friends (though haven't seen him in years) has been a Trump supporter since the start.

He is educated, but does lean towards the conservative meme attacks on the Clintons/Liberals. But he does have good in him....I can sense it....

Anyway, his support for Trump is nothing more than a disdain of our current system. It is broken, both sides are to blame so he feels the solution is to elect someone who's an outsider. The best case is Trump brings new ideas and isn't beholden to lobbyists. Worst case the system crashes and what comes next is more ideal.

I can completely understand this line of thinking, and from a high level, it even makes some sense.

But it's a fantasy and nothing more. There are serious consequences that this mindset doesn't account for, or worse, they don't care abut the damage done


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What angers me most about Trump is that in principle I agree... but Trump isn't the person to bring the change that's needed. He's a publicity stunt gone way way wrong.

And when he either loses a landslide or gets elected and is a disaster (which I believe are the only options) it'll only hurt the general public's ability to see anyone but a career politician as electable.

And yea... I think there are only two viable options for this election. The general public turns on Trump en masse after the debates and he gets creamed... or he wins. I don't think Hillary wins a nail biter.
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Old 07-30-2016, 12:45 PM   #648
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My mom is a single-issue voter. Abortion. That's it. Despite the fact that Trump only became pro life a year ago. Despite the fact that abortion rates have dropped more under Democratic presidents than Republican ones (in fact, abortion rates went up under GWB), she's going with the party that yells most loudly against it.

I've got a post on Facebook where she started out defending Trump, but she has since stopped trying to justify that and has only kept commenting on abortion and how it's a Christian imperative to vote for the pro-life candidate (even if the pro-choice candidate is more effective at lowering the abortion rate). Her belief that abortion is the number one issue in this country also allows her to ignore the fact that Trump's stance on the death penalty, torture and support for the poor is anything but pro-life.

I'm pretty sure that deep down she knows Trump is an awful candidate, but her pride prevents her from admitting it.
Not to pry, but because I've seen some of her posts and I've never come across anyone who feels SO strongly about any one position if I'm being honest, but what drives this passion? Don't get me wrong I also have Eastern European Catholic parents who are both religiously and culturally Catholic so I get this issue being at the forefront but even they have managed to migrate to a "pro-choice in certain circumstances" position which is quite the evolution. And part of it is, according to my Mom, that as a woman of almost 65 this issue isn't personal to her anymore, she can't have children, isn't adopting them, etc. So she has sympathy for women who are in a position where it very much is personal and attempts to steer clear of interfering. That made me wonder about the position other elderly people have and why on earth feel so strongly about something that truthfully has little impact on their life.
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Old 07-30-2016, 01:23 PM   #649
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Not to pry, but because I've seen some of her posts and I've never come across anyone who feels SO strongly about any one position if I'm being honest, but what drives this passion? Don't get me wrong I also have Eastern European Catholic parents who are both religiously and culturally Catholic so I get this issue being at the forefront but even they have managed to migrate to a "pro-choice in certain circumstances" position which is quite the evolution. And part of it is, according to my Mom, that as a woman of almost 65 this issue isn't personal to her anymore, she can't have children, isn't adopting them, etc. So she has sympathy for women who are in a position where it very much is personal and attempts to steer clear of interfering. That made me wonder about the position other elderly people have and why on earth feel so strongly about something that truthfully has little impact on their life.
The snarky answer is that my mom enjoys feeling morally superior to others.

In reality she has become much, much more conservative in both her religious and political views since moving to the bible belt (Oklahoma) nearly 20 years ago. And especially since the 2008 election, she has been unable to extricate her political views from her religious ones, which leads to the kind of fundamentalist expressions of her faith that you've seen glimpses of. That fundamentalism makes every issue very black and white, and so it's no surprise that she has a hard time feeling empathy for someone who may feel that abortion is the only option. When everything is either God's will or evil, there is no nuance.

It leads to the kind of cognitive dissonance where she can quote Bible passages about loving your neighbor and opening your arms to those in need, and then in the same hour rant about lazy poor people and the dangers of opening our country to refugees.
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Old 07-30-2016, 03:35 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Not to pry, but because I've seen some of her posts and I've never come across anyone who feels SO strongly about any one position if I'm being honest, but what drives this passion? Don't get me wrong I also have Eastern European Catholic parents who are both religiously and culturally Catholic so I get this issue being at the forefront but even they have managed to migrate to a "pro-choice in certain circumstances" position which is quite the evolution. And part of it is, according to my Mom, that as a woman of almost 65 this issue isn't personal to her anymore, she can't have children, isn't adopting them, etc. So she has sympathy for women who are in a position where it very much is personal and attempts to steer clear of interfering. That made me wonder about the position other elderly people have and why on earth feel so strongly about something that truthfully has little impact on their life.
just an aside before answering your question.
I wonder why I currently associate the word "elderly" with fraility but not necessarily with the word "old".
At 63 I don't feel old, and especially not elderly.

To the "?".

Oh and I was partly raised in the Ukrainian Catholic church. I eventually moved away from Catholicism, then Christianity, and remain very a spiritual person.
I was almost 20 when Roe v Wade was passed (thank the powers & TSC). My dad was the Ukie w no sibs. I was at my mom's big Greek Orthodox (1st gen) family where we hung out, where I went around the living room asking how they felt (don't remember anyone's answers) about it.

I was a feminist early on since while I luvvvvved fashion and jewelry, I was also all artist, part geek, SF & science fan, sports player, policy wonk and political activist. So such even relatively restrictiveness in being thought weird, odd, and women being told couldn't do, or shouldn't be interested in this sruff even in Cosmopolitan, relatively Modern NYC ... BIG fucking ... it felt terrible to be told this or looked askance at...but it didn't stop me.

(accidentally hit save still con't post )

So by the time R v W rolled around, I had changed from the traditional Catholic view to the - a woman has a right to choose whether she wants to carry, and have a child.
I still feel very passionate about it. I want women to have the most open to opportunities in situations/chances in their life.
Whether they decide to be mother's or not. It's important for a woman to feel she's more ready than not to be a mother. I've been in several pro-choice marches through the decades.
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Old 07-30-2016, 05:04 PM   #651
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Not to pry, but because I've seen some of her posts
...you have diemen's mom as a friend on facebook?
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Old 07-30-2016, 05:17 PM   #652
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In reality she has become much, much more conservative in both her religious and political views since moving to the bible belt (Oklahoma) nearly 20 years ago.
I was startled to find that this has happened to a cousin of mine who is a few years younger than me. She's lived in rural central Nebraska since '98, and is now a Trump voter. Just the day before I got this out of her, she proudly told me that her dad, my uncle, had called her a "feminazi" when he was visiting a few days before I got there. She bragged about the ballooning gay population of her town (3 out of 20 residents), and then later complained about the "lack of objective news sources." Then I saw Breitbart and Drudge bookmarked on her husband's laptop.

I damn near got whiplash from all the disconnects.
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Old 07-30-2016, 06:05 PM   #653
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...you have diemen's mom as a friend on facebook?
Doesn't everyone?



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Old 07-30-2016, 06:36 PM   #654
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Doesn't everyone?



Even diamond does.

Awkward !


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Old 07-30-2016, 07:02 PM   #655
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Oh hey, Trump is trying to weasel out of the debates... and do so by lying through his teeth I'm multiple fronts... aka, by being Donald Trump
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Old 07-30-2016, 07:15 PM   #656
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...you have diemen's mom as a friend on facebook?
LOL, no but I do think that would be funny.

(She often gets into political discussions on his posts.)
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Old 07-30-2016, 07:20 PM   #657
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In reality she has become much, much more conservative in both her religious and political views since moving to the bible belt (Oklahoma) nearly 20 years ago.
That's actually really interesting given some of the extreme anti-Catholic views that are often espoused in the Bible belt. When I was in law school, I had a roommate who was a graduate student in music. She came from the Bible belt, having recently divorced (married at 18, husband "tolerated" her getting a BA but didn't think it appropriate or necessary for her to "waste" money on grad school). Anyway, she was raised Baptist and we were roommates matched through grad services so hadn't known each other before. She was rapidly becoming very socially progressive and really discovering the world beyond what she had known and at the end of the first week of living together she expressed to me that I was the first Catholic she was friends with. She said she'd always been taught to be suspicious of Catholics and didn't think them to be Christian at all.
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:03 PM   #658
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There's a lot of there, there, under the surface I get the impression, when it comes to religious faith in America. When people talk about the demographic decline of White Christian America, two of those words are doing a lot of work. I mean that not least in the context of what is meant by 'Christian' (eg. certainly not Catholic).
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:45 PM   #659
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That's actually really interesting given some of the extreme anti-Catholic views that are often espoused in the Bible belt. When I was in law school, I had a roommate who was a graduate student in music. She came from the Bible belt, having recently divorced (married at 18, husband "tolerated" her getting a BA but didn't think it appropriate or necessary for her to "waste" money on grad school). Anyway, she was raised Baptist and we were roommates matched through grad services so hadn't known each other before. She was rapidly becoming very socially progressive and really discovering the world beyond what she had known and at the end of the first week of living together she expressed to me that I was the first Catholic she was friends with. She said she'd always been taught to be suspicious of Catholics and didn't think them to be Christian at all.

I had several Baptist friends who reacted similarly to yours. I think as a result of some of that lingering anti-Catholic sentiment in the Bible Belt, Catholicism becomes a bit more bible-beltish. At least for some.
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Old 07-30-2016, 10:34 PM   #660
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Oh hey, Trump is trying to weasel out of the debates... and do so by lying through his teeth I'm multiple fronts... aka, by being Donald Trump

And would anyone call him out on this bullshit??? Doubtful.

Unprecedented for a candidate to not debate. But he would really show himself to be the idiot that he is. The man is not capable of understanding law and governance.

He knows this, and that's why he's already making excuses


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