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Old 07-24-2016, 05:33 PM   #31
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One thing that I think about regarding Clinton and Stein is that Clinton, as the Savage piece pointed to, is having to pull together an anti-Trump coalition from people both to her left and to her right, and I feel like we all have a duty to recognize that.

I come from somewhat to the right of the post-Bernie Clinton campaign, and I'm having to hold my nose a good bit when voting her. I strongly support the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I think that a $15 national minimum wage is a terrible idea. I'm pretty lukewarm on the left's campaign finance reform causes. A tax on high frequency trading seems really silly to me.

But I recognize that it would be a disaster for this country. And I honestly feel that I need to do everything I can to support the only credible candidate who can defeat him. I believe in a world that is more open, more democratic, more fair to people of all backgrounds. I think that most people who, like me, typically vote for Democrats are. And I believe that Donald J. Trump is at best someone who will set that project back in numerous ways and at worst an existential crisis for it. So, I'm With Her, even if she's to my left.

I understand people who are far to my left who think that the revolution is coming every day, who think that the system isn't worth saving, and who want to cast a protest vote in that sense. But I think that's a rather small minority of people considering voting for Stein; for most of those people, Stein is way too far to the right. So, for the rest of us, for everyone who doesn't want to set the stage for potential global catastrophe, I feel like Clinton is the only answer. I'm sucking up and voting for someone to my left, and I don't think it's too much to ask for the favor to be returned. I think we all have similar goals, if different ideas on how to reach them correctly. But Donald J. Trump must, must, must, must, must be defeated.

That said, there's a strong argument for major electoral reform in this country. The electoral college is what prevents third party candidates from being viable, and it might have outlived its usefulness. But it's not going away in 2016.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:11 PM   #32
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Michael R. Bloomberg, who bypassed his own run for the presidency this election cycle, will endorse Hillary Clinton in a prime-time address at the Democratic convention and make the case for Mrs. Clinton as the best choice for moderate voters in 2016, an adviser to Mr. Bloomberg said.

The news is an unexpected move from Mr. Bloomberg, who has not been a member of the Democratic Party since 2000; was elected the mayor of New York City as a Republican; and later became an independent.

But it reflects Mr. Bloomberg’s increasing dismay about the rise of Donald J. Trump and a determination to see that the Republican nominee is defeated.

Mrs. Clinton is seeking to reach out to middle-of-the-road swing voters and even moderate Republicans uneasy about Mr. Trump. Polls show that significant numbers of Republicans remain wary of Mr. Trump, and question his fitness for the presidency.

Mr. Bloomberg will vouch for Mrs. Clinton “from the perspective of a business leader and an independent,” said Howard Wolfson, a senior adviser to Mr. Bloomberg.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:14 PM   #33
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i think it's a nice thought to want a progressive Democratic presidential ticket, but the reality is, at this point, we aren't getting any more progressive than Obama, who is definitely to the Left of B. Clinton. winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing given the straight up insanity of the GOP since 2000. these people must be kept out of power by whatever legal means necessary. if that means playing it safe and being moderate, on a national level, so be it. a president is president of all the people, not just the residents of the Bay Area or Madison, WI.

what Democrats need to do is start turning out in off-year elections and not just show up when the cool black guy is on the ticket. state houses and governorships are where future stars are born, and progressive states like CA and MA and NY and even CO need to groom progressive leaders with national appeal. think Tim Kaine is too bland? think his straight white maleness disqualifies him from being a part of the future? find your local stars and support them.

i feel the same way about the Green Party. and instead of paraphrasing, i'll post the Dan Savage post on Jill Stein that went viral a few days ago:




there are people who get up very early in the morning and work very hard to make the Democratic Party viable. you go to an election with the electorate you have, not the electorate you want.

Obama's biggest failure -- and, i agree, Kaine should share some blame for this -- has been the resounding defeats in 2010 and 2014. however, we can only blame the leaders so much. people have to get out and actually vote. like how old people do. you want a progressive country? vote for one.
That's phenomenal
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:19 PM   #34
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When you run elections to NOT LOSE instead of to win, eventually, the chickens will come home to roost.
I agree with this completely. I don't want to see Clinton's campaign go the way of "this is why we can't have Trump elected" instead of "this is why I should be elected."

From my recollection that's what Romney tried last election cycle - to convince everyone he wasn't Obama - and it failed miserably as a strategy.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:31 PM   #35
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what can she do, though? given that, 1) it's Donald fucking Trump (and that ad where he's talking about Megyn Kelly's menstrual blood while the children are watching is awfully effective), and, 2) we've all had to admit how awful she is, how we'll have to hold our noses, how she is UNLIKEABLE and SHRILL and has NO CHARISMA and that her only redeeming quality is that she isn't Donald Trump.

all this while the opposition had a grieving mother accuse her of murder last week, and have been doing so since 1992.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:33 PM   #36
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I agree with this completely. I don't want to see Clinton's campaign go the way of "this is why we can't have Trump elected" instead of "this is why I should be elected."
But let's be honest, it already has and that's the only direction to go given how unpopular Clinton is with the general public. It's a shame because that has led to candidates like John Kerry in the past who offered basically nothing other than not being Bush.

Clinton was already positioning herself that way in the primaries...doing photo-ops in front of a Trump Tower, arguing that she shouldn't have to release her paid speech transcripts because the Republican's don't, etc. It's an easy-out and politically boring, but the fear of a Republican presidency is a huge reason why she got so many people to support her in the primaries to begin with...stopping them at all costs seems to mean more to older voters and they're obviously the easiest group to get spooked over the proverbial Bogeyman, regardless of political affiliation.

Clinton certainly has her ideas and plans that can bring people in, but the election is really going to come down to a referendum on the other candidate with the person people detest less, all things considered, ultimately winning.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:35 PM   #37
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Michael R. Bloomberg, who bypassed his own run for the presidency this election cycle, will endorse Hillary Clinton in a prime-time address at the Democratic convention and make the case for Mrs. Clinton as the best choice for moderate voters in 2016, an adviser to Mr. Bloomberg said.

The news is an unexpected move from Mr. Bloomberg, who has not been a member of the Democratic Party since 2000; was elected the mayor of New York City as a Republican; and later became an independent.

But it reflects Mr. Bloomberg’s increasing dismay about the rise of Donald J. Trump and a determination to see that the Republican nominee is defeated.

Mrs. Clinton is seeking to reach out to middle-of-the-road swing voters and even moderate Republicans uneasy about Mr. Trump. Polls show that significant numbers of Republicans remain wary of Mr. Trump, and question his fitness for the presidency.

Mr. Bloomberg will vouch for Mrs. Clinton “from the perspective of a business leader and an independent,” said Howard Wolfson, a senior adviser to Mr. Bloomberg.
Bloomberg represents moderates and working class people, or Goldman Sachs, Romney is there too, in spirit. Neo-cons that brought the Iraq debacle are with her, too.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:39 PM   #38
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Bloomberg represents moderates and working class people, or Goldman Sachs, Romney is there too, in spirit. Neo-cons that brought the Iraq debacle are with her, too.


good. everyone needs to denounce that authoritarian Cheeto.

i know who the Bush family is voting for. and i know who Romney is voting for.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:40 PM   #39
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I don't expect anyone wants to talk about the DNC being rigged, just like Trump has been saying it is


Democratic Party chief to step down after embarrassing anti-Sanders emails are released - LA Times

and this did not only start only after Bernie has lost in the primaries,
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:42 PM   #40
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i know who the Bush family is voting for. and i know who Romney is voting for.
a good point, about corruption and selling out regular working class people

Bernie supporters should really consider this.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:51 PM   #41
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Nice to see that Debbie had to resign...such a fanatical whack job.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:52 PM   #42
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rigged
so sad, just sad
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:53 PM   #43
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112 fugitives across Southern California arrested in ICE operation - The Orange County Register

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When a suspect is arrested, he or she has the right to deportation and bail hearings and appeals of a judge’s final decision.

An additional hurdle is that most countries require the deportee to have travel documents. About two dozen nations, which ICE described in congressional testimony as “recalcitrant,” drag their feet in providing the documents or fail to offer them at all.

In the past three years, according to ICE statistics, more than 87,000 undocumented immigrants in ICE custody have had to be released back into the U.S. because they lacked the proper papers.

“Sadly, ICE records indicate a number of these aliens have gone on to commit additional crimes while in the United States,” ICE Deputy Director Daniel Ragsdale told the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee this month.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:54 PM   #44
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Bloomberg represents moderates and working class people, or Goldman Sachs, Romney is there too, in spirit. Neo-cons that brought the Iraq debacle are with her, too.
Well shit... with liberals, moderate, working class, Goldman people, Romney people and Neo-Cons who voted for Iraq, who's left to vote for that orange faced cunt?
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:56 PM   #45
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what can she do, though? given that, 1) it's Donald fucking Trump (and that ad where he's talking about Megyn Kelly's menstrual blood while the children are watching is awfully effective), and, 2) we've all had to admit how awful she is, how we'll have to hold our noses, how she is UNLIKEABLE and SHRILL and has NO CHARISMA and that her only redeeming quality is that she isn't Donald Trump.

all this while the opposition had a grieving mother accuse her of murder last week, and have been doing so since 1992.
I think she should emphasize her considerable experience and pragmatism and refuse to acknowledge the kind of misogynist drivel that unfortunately has been thrown at her. Yes, there are those who will buy into the "shrill bitch" stereotype, but (in a rare moment of optimism for me) I believe that the majority of the American voting public will see those attacks for exactly what they are: sexist bullshit.
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