2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part XI - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-24-2016, 08:43 AM   #16
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To answer Irvine's question of why Kaine bothers me for 2024:

Based on his record, there is nothing that suggests that he is open to moving leftward. Again, this is a personal choice - the US Democrats are essentially like Canadian Conservatives, so for me, they are too far centre and I'd prefer a move to the left, though not a radical move. My main issue with Kaine is how he governed when he was DNC Chairman. He did very little to energize the base or encourage turnout. Remember that this was on the heels of a historic Obama victory where the party had finally embraced the 50-state strategy of Howard Dean. They had the databases, they had the personnel and they failed absolutely miserably. Some of it could not be helped, because Obamacare galvanized the right. But Kaine watched and did very little to salvage the midterms. He just reminds me of that centrist Democratic politician without a vision for the future, hanging on to the idea of winning OH, PA, FL - fine, those are musts but that's not inspiring for people. And the Democrats have been very, very lucky that the Republicans have been their own worst enemy, nominating out of touch rich people (Romney), McCain who appeared senile and Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency, now a man who is a reality tv star and has no grasp of policy or international relations. Do you think that Hillary would be a sure thing against Jon Huntsman? Hell I would have seriously considered voting for him over her and I'm not even the typical centrist voter who would. If the GOP gets their act together, boots Cruz and comes up with a Huntsman-type candidate, after 16 years of a Democratic president, Kaine would be a disaster as a bulwark. Based on how he ran the DNC which to me indicates the sort of vision he has.

He's not dumb, he's not irresponsible, he's boring but not unlikeable. Basically he's...okay. I'm a bit disappointed that in an election that I believe the other side will lose in a landslide AND in an election that could set up the Dems for a very nice future reign, the choice was made to go with "okay."
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:33 AM   #17
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I think they recognize that the only chance Trump has is if the middle turns drastically in his direction, so why take that chance by nominating a far left progressive?

The VP choice isn't winning any elections... But we have seen VP choices help to lose elections. This is an election they should win by a landslide as long as they don't fuck it up, so they went safe. Might not be an inspiring choice, but it's unlikely to be one that blows up in their face, either.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:48 AM   #18
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This is an actual tweet from Trump:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...12114460569604

Paying that much attention to how much people are applauding you puts you in some bad company.

Narcissist in Chief!
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:37 AM   #19
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look guys, the mod doesn't know how to use the embed feature!

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Old 07-24-2016, 11:40 AM   #20
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I'm not hip like all you young cats.
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:21 PM   #21
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diemen fulfills bob's wish and creates a non-mod alter to post in fym:

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Old 07-24-2016, 12:23 PM   #22
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:31 PM   #23
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I hate the embedded feature because it doesn't work on the Tapatalk app


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Old 07-24-2016, 12:42 PM   #24
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or the "official" app. neither do gifs.
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
He's not dumb, he's not irresponsible, he's boring but not unlikeable. Basically he's...okay. I'm a bit disappointed that in an election that I believe the other side will lose in a landslide AND in an election that could set up the Dems for a very nice future reign, the choice was made to go with "okay."
Kaine helps guarantee Virginia, which is barely a blue state. In the 2014 senate race, Warner (D) beat the Republican by less than 1%. Without the libertarian(who did better in many red counties) in the race, Warner may have lost.
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Old 07-24-2016, 02:57 PM   #26
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part XI

If we can guarantee that Virginia goes Blue and that Clinton doesn't struggle in kinda-blue states like Nevada, Iowa, New Mexico, and New Hampshire, then Clinton just has to win one of Pennsylvania, Ohio, or Florida to win. Colorado doesn't matter either way in this scenario.

So, in my mind, the Kaine pick makes sense if the election is really tight. If the dynamics really shift towards Trump, it won't matter. But if it is a close race, it will help by making Clinton need only one of the big three swing states, assuming that Kaine locks in Virginia (which isn't certain, of course).


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Old 07-24-2016, 03:45 PM   #27
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i think it's a nice thought to want a progressive Democratic presidential ticket, but the reality is, at this point, we aren't getting any more progressive than Obama, who is definitely to the Left of B. Clinton. winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing given the straight up insanity of the GOP since 2000. these people must be kept out of power by whatever legal means necessary. if that means playing it safe and being moderate, on a national level, so be it. a president is president of all the people, not just the residents of the Bay Area or Madison, WI.

what Democrats need to do is start turning out in off-year elections and not just show up when the cool black guy is on the ticket. state houses and governorships are where future stars are born, and progressive states like CA and MA and NY and even CO need to groom progressive leaders with national appeal. think Tim Kaine is too bland? think his straight white maleness disqualifies him from being a part of the future? find your local stars and support them.

i feel the same way about the Green Party. and instead of paraphrasing, i'll post the Dan Savage post on Jill Stein that went viral a few days ago:

Quote:
CALLER: Hi my name is Pheasant and I live in Kansas. My question is, why — you guys talk a lot about politics — I would love to hear you guys talk about third party politics: Independent Party, the Green Party, and the Libertarian Party.

I’m a huge Green Party supporter; I’m voting for Jill Stein. And I realize that people say that if you vote for these, it’s just a wasted vote, it’s a vote for Republicans.

But I also feel we need to start sending a message to Washington and to our political leaders that we’re sick and tired of this two party system and candidates who are controlled by corporations and special interest groups. And they can’t piss off their donors, you know, because they buy the votes.

So I’m just wondering why you guys never talk about it because I think Jill Stein — she’s a member of the Green Party — she’s amazing. And for the people that bitch and moan about… Hillary didn’t always support gay rights, and Bernie didn’t always support this… I agree with you Dan, I think it's ridiculous how — that people can change. That’s what we want, we try to get people — hey, stop being a homophobic asshole, hey stop being a racist prick. But you know the Green Party has never changed. They’ve always supported gay rights, equality for all, the environment…

DAN SAVAGE: Alright, blah blah blah. Sorry I had to stop you. Yeah, let’s talk about the Green Party for just a moment, or third parties, getting a third party movement off the ground here in this country. Because we are sick of the two party system!

Here’s how you fucking do that: you run people not just for fucking president every four fucking years.

I have a problem with the Greens, I have a problem with the Libertarians. I have a problem with these fake, attention seeking, grandstanding Green/Libertarian party candidates who pop up every four years, like mushrooms in shit, saying that they're building a third party. And those of us who don't have a home in the Republican Party, don't have a home in the Democratic Party, can't get behind every Democratic position or Republican position, should gravitate toward these third parties. And help build a third party movement by every four fucking years voting for one of these assholes like Jill fucking Stein, who I'm sure is a lovely person, she's only an asshole in this aspect.

If you're interested in building a third party, a viable third party, you don’t start with president. You don't start by running someone for fucking president.

[B]Where are the Green Party candidates for city councils? For county councils? For state legislatures? For state assessor? For state insurance commissioner? For governor? For fucking dogcatcher? I would be SO willing to vote for Green Party candidates who are starting at the bottom, grassroots, bottom up, building a third party, a viable third party.

You don't do that by trotting out the reanimated corpse of Ralph fucking Nader every four fucking years. Or his doppelgänger, whoever it is now, Jill Stein and some asshole-to-be-named four years from now. You start by running grassroots, local campaigns. And there've been — and I'm sure we're going hear from lots of people out there listening — there have been a couple of Green Party candidates who’ve run in other races here and there across the country. But no sustained effort to build a Green Party nationally. Just this griping, bullshitty, grandstanding, fault-finding, purity-testing, holier than thou-ing, that we are all subjected to every four fucking years by the Green Party candidate.

And the folks, including you caller — and I love you and I respect you and we’re having this debate and I'm not treating you with kid gloves because I respect you — who are fooled by them, who are sucked into this bullshit, who are tricked by these grandstanding, attention-seeking, bullshit-spewing charlatans, into wasting your vote.

Which is what you are going to do, I'm sorry to say, to circle back to the top of your call. You are essentially, if you're voting for Jill Stein, helping to potentially elect Donald J. Trump president of these United States. Which would be a catastrophe.

Which is what some people say that they want. People supported Ralph Nader in 2000 and said there was no difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush, therefore we could all afford to throw our votes away, protest-style, on Ralph Nader, who had no hope of getting elected, because there was no difference between Bush and Gore.

These same people, at the same time, said that George Bush was so manifestly obviously terrible that he would bring the revolution if he got himself elected somehow. They didn’t say this about Gore, he wouldn’t bring the revolution. They’re exactly the same, exactly as awful, but one would bring the revolution and one wouldn’t. Which means they weren't exactly the same and they weren't equally awful.

And we're hearing the same thing now about Hillary and Donald. That they’re both equally awful. They're both equally terrible, corrupt two party system, fuck it, fuck it, fuck it. Fuck them both, fuck both their houses! Vote for Jill Stein!

And if Donald should get elected, oh he’s so terrible, so much worse than the equally awful Hillary Clinton, that his election will bring the revolution.

It's bullshit.

The revolution did not come in 2000 when George W. Bush got close enough to winning to steal the White House. It will not come if Donald J. Trump gets his ass elected.

Disaster will come. And the people who’ll suffer are not going to be the pasty white Green Party supporters — pasty white Jill Stein and her pasty white supporters. The people who’ll suffer are going to be people of color. People of minority faiths. Queer people. Women.

Don’t do it. Don't throw your vote away on Jill Stein/vote for, bankshot-style, Donald Trump.

And if you want to build a viable third party, more power to you. I could see myself voting for a Green Party candidate for president in 25 years, after I've seen Green Party candidates getting elected to state legislatures, getting elected to governorships, getting elected to Congress. Then you can run some legitimate motherfucker for president.

Dan Savage on Jill Stein: Just No. - Slog - The Stranger

there are people who get up very early in the morning and work very hard to make the Democratic Party viable. you go to an election with the electorate you have, not the electorate you want.

Obama's biggest failure -- and, i agree, Kaine should share some blame for this -- has been the resounding defeats in 2010 and 2014. however, we can only blame the leaders so much. people have to get out and actually vote. like how old people do. you want a progressive country? vote for one.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:38 PM   #28
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If anything the pick of Kaine underscores the ridiculousness of the electoral college system, in which major party decisions, with implicit future directions, are made based on picking up a state here or there.

And who knows, maybe Kaine and Hillary get along famously as she has claimed. Maybe she implicitly trusts him and the two will make a great team. If that is the case, we should be focusing on that, not on whether he can turn a few states in November.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:46 PM   #29
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This is it for me, too.

It could also be summed up in two other words: Supreme Court.
Yeah, THIS. If nothing else! And there is plenty of else! to go around.

I f (gak) trump wins it's gonna be...

"baby, baby, where did our libs go?...."
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Old 07-24-2016, 05:25 PM   #30
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i

what Democrats need to do is start turning out in off-year elections and not just show up when the cool black guy is on the ticket.
Which is actually basically the purpose for the DNC's existence. Worst defeat imaginable, which created a lot of the gridlock in Washington in subsequent years, and that defeat happened under the guidance of Kaine. That's why I don't care for him. Whether he picks up Virginia or whatever else, that had left a bad taste in my mouth and my theory has always been that he (much like most Dems) really doesn't believe in a 50-state strategy, but in running for a state or two. When you run elections to NOT LOSE instead of to win, eventually, the chickens will come home to roost.

To be perfectly honest if she nominated Kaine and he said he had no interest in running for president after her term(s), I'd have no issue with him. I just don't want him to be seen as the future.
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