2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part XI - Page 15 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-25-2016, 11:22 PM   #211
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but then they doubt her sincerity when she does.
And you really wonder why?
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:24 PM   #212
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how many goddam times do we have to read the same goddam posts over and over and over and over the dnc started today, anybody wanna talk about that?

Yes, let's!

I think they should've saved Michelle for Thursday night. That was a darn near perfect speech. Booker was good, but not nearly as polished in delivery as Michelle. Warren was great.

Also, the overall message was strong. Celebrating diversity, togetherness, inclusion, time devoted mental health and drug addiction as medical conditions!
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:26 PM   #213
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Also, the overall message was strong. Celebrating diversity, togetherness, inclusion, time devoted mental health and drug addiction as medical conditions!
And science! Don't forget about science!
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:27 PM   #214
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Sure. He's not going to just drop the nuke. So, what's he going to do? Invade the area like we did in Afghanistan? How would they be any different from what Clinton has done and supported?
i'm beginning to think you are unaware of the power of the executive branch.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:32 PM   #215
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This whole "well Hillary is just as irresponsible as Trump" thing is mind-boggling.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:38 PM   #216
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Nobody on the left is saying there's equivalency. They're just saying that her faults are of a magnitude to disqualify her from being a leader that Americans can trust. And that's exactly why she's doing so poorly outside of the party bubble.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:40 PM   #217
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This is entirely relevant because of Clinton's massive poll slump, and oh, I dunno, the fact that the entire DNC lineup of events had massive booing going on throughout today.


I guess Sanders just attracts uninformed selfish narcissists? People who read a meme or two and decide they know all they need to know about the TPP?

On a more serious note, I think the other 90% of the Sanders supporters who say they will now vote for Hillary (and who are being terribly represented at the DNC) were likely attracted to Sanders by his focus on student debt and the minimum wage.

The minimum wage I think can be debated, but it seems unarguable that debt has crippled a generation to the point where they can't start their lives. Amidst the nose rings and tears, what I saw a lot of in that audience was fear. It must be utterly terrifying to be 25 and have $75,000 of debt. It must be utterly terrifying to see yourself strapped into monthly payments for the next 30 years as rents rise around you along with everything else. I think a lot of young people feel drowned by debt, and it's debt they have no choice to incur because it's incredibly difficult to make it without a college education. It can also be incredibly difficult to make savvy educational choices when you grew up with parents who themselves never went to college.

It's a major problem, and this, in my opinion, is Bernie's biggest accomplishment -- pulling the party further to the left on this issue.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:54 PM   #218
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I'm just saying, BM, that it doesn't make much sense to demand she do something to prove she's truly supportive of liberal issues only to then turn around and doubt her sincerity when she does exactly what you (general "you") want her to do. Yes, she has voted for some things people on the left generally don't agree with. But that doesn't automatically make the support she does show for liberal issues any less sincere or valid.

If people on the left really want to see some genuine progress made on issues they support, instead of throwing their vote behind some third party candidate who obviously won't win and who will ultimately wind up giving votes to the other candidate, they need to hold Hilary's feet to the fire instead. They need to push as hard as they can to make sure she will undoubtedly fight for issues that matter to them, as well as make them a priority on the campaign trail in the coming months.

And should she become president, urge her to not back down in the face of Republican opposition when legislation comes up for a vote, and encourage the Democratic members of Congress to back her up and champion the issues as well (hell, if there's any Republican members of Congress that might be even the slightest bit persuadable, wouldn't hurt to encourage them as well, if possible).

And so on. That sort of action would do much more to benefit progressive issues and ensure a progressive candidacy than making a spite vote would come November.
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:01 AM   #219
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The minimum wage I think can be debated, but it seems unarguable that debt has crippled a generation to the point where they can't start their lives. Amidst the nose rings and tears, what I saw a lot of in that audience was fear. It must be utterly terrifying to be 25 and have $75,000 of debt. It must be utterly terrifying to see yourself strapped into monthly payments for the next 30 years as rents rise around you along with everything else. I think a lot of young people feel drowned by debt, and it's debt they have no choice to incur because it's incredibly difficult to make it without a college education. It can also be incredibly difficult to make savvy educational choices when you grew up with parents who themselves never went to college.

It's a major problem, and this, in my opinion, is Bernie's biggest accomplishment -- pulling the party further to the left on this issue.

Student debt is the number one economic issue facing this country for exactly the reason you said: it is stalling entire generations of investors in real estate, stocks, human capital through families, etc.

I think that aside from student debt relief measures, there needs to be a cultural shift in how we think about college - away from seeing it as a rite of passage or a time when you "find yourself" by going away to some distant location. Colleges are bloating with residence and amenity costs that can be (to an extent) avoided by staying near home or spending some time at a community college.

I fear we are culturally and economically heading toward even more class stratification in terms of families who can afford to send their kids away to college and families who cannot, with the former unjustifiably carrying a sense of prestige over the latter.
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:01 AM   #220
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it's incredibly difficult to make it without a college education. It can also be incredibly difficult to make savvy educational choices when you grew up with parents who themselves never went to college.
I can attest to the truth of this.

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I think that aside from student debt relief measures, there needs to be a cultural shift in how we think about college - away from seeing it as a rite of passage or a time when you "find yourself" by going away to some distant location. Colleges are bloating with residence and amenity costs that can be (to an extent) avoided by staying near home or spending some time at a community college.

I fear we are culturally and economically heading toward even more class stratification in terms of families who can afford to send their kids away to college and families who cannot, with the former unjustifiably carrying a sense of prestige over the latter.
Agreed with this, too . I don't argue that higher education is necessary for many jobs out there, of course, but it is frustrating when someone who couldn't afford college has a harder time finding a good paying job simply because they don't have x amount of degrees or enough experience/prior training (the old, "I can't get a job because I don't have experience, but I don't have experience because I can't get a job" cycle). I think that needs to be addressed as well.
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:07 AM   #221
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If people on the left really want to see some genuine progress made on issues they support, instead of throwing their vote behind some third party candidate who obviously won't win and who will ultimately wind up giving votes to the other candidate, they need to hold Hilary's feet to the fire instead.
This mentality seems to be coming up a lot, and I'm really not comfortable with the general sense that people who vote third party are somehow short-sighted or lacking in integrity. It's on the candidate to win over the holdouts, not on the holdouts to compromise their sense of principle and their democratic right to vote (or not vote) as they see fit.

I don't condone withholding a vote based on spite or anything like that. But people shouldn't be criticized for voting third party if it's where their convictions take them.
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:19 AM   #222
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You're absolutely right, and I don't mean to imply such a thing, because I agree that many who vote third party do so because they genuinely like that candidate, and because they honestly think they're the best choice out of the options available. I appreciate and respect the desire to vote one's conscience.

I was referring to the people who ARE using their third party vote this year as a spite vote, just because they're unhappy the candidate they wanted didn't win. I understand and sympathize with their frustration, and if they really want to vote for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson or write in Tony the Tiger or whatever because they genuinely think they're the best option, that's their choice. I obviously can't stop them.

But people who are voting out of spite more than anything else, I was just suggesting examples of other ways to fight for what they want policy-wise. Voters and candidates have to meet halfway. The candidates have to work to woo the fence-sitters and assure the base they'll do what they say they'll do, and the voters need to make their voices heard about the issues that mean the most to them, and make sure the candidates will live up to their promises and plans as much as possible if they get into the White House.
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:47 AM   #223
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I really don't think it's out of spite. If they were longtime party members and/or Democratic voters, then sure, you have a point. But most of them aren't.

I'm not abstaining from voting for Clinton because of Clinton or because Sanders didn't win, I'm doing so because I never would vote for a Democrat for President who didn't align with my beliefs the way someone like Kucinich or Nader happens to do. There's nothing bitter about me not voting for Clinton because I didn't vote for Obama or Kerry for the exact same reasons.

If anything, the people that are doing such because they want someone that best suits their political beliefs are voting in a much purer fashion that someone merely voting out of fear to stop Trump. You don't win elections with "anyone but Bush" or "anyone but Obama".

Unfortunately, if we're using that as a metric, Trump's the person that's actually brought out disenfranchised voters to the polls and was arguing his own thing whereas the Clinton campaign has merely been in "we must stop the Republicans mode" for most of the process and especially now given that her favorable ratings are completely in the tank. It's not a good place historically for the country to be in as the person winning hearts usually wins the votes and Clinton has energized absolutely no new voters.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:09 AM   #224
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part XI

I did not get a chance to watch all of the convention tonight. I want to see it all so I can make some fair assessments of how the dynamics of the race will unfold.

As most of you know I am voting for Trump. I have family-friends that are Trumpsters others that are solidly for Hillary. A few that are up for grabs.

From here on out its all about getting the messaging right for those people 'up for grabs'.

These are your working-class voters across the Midwest, suburban security moms, independents sick of the status quo. Yes the demographics are changing in the country benefiting Democrats. But each side needs to fight for those undecided white voters to push them to victory.

Right now the big polled issues are Security and the Economy. Tonight I saw the Dems checking off the Social Justice boxes to reinforce their base of support. I'm not sure if it moved the ball forward with the undecideds. Are these folks racists-xenophobes-homophobes? Some have those tendencies, but generationally I think we move away from past divisions to the point where many millennials (raised properly) are inoculated to historic racism.

I'm curious to see in the coming nights how the Democrats address the security concerns the undecideds have. Obama, Dems, and media called Trump's speech Doom and Gloom. Downplaying what they saw as fear-mongering. While over the weekend we have seen the emergence of a Intifada on German soil. Axe attack last week, shooting on Friday, machete attack, and suicide bombing in a wine bar Sunday ( Not strong enough to kill dozens, but critical injuries nonetheless ). The GOP presented a Law & Order platform ( decried as a dog whistle by critics ), but seems to have traction with voters after the unforeseen events of the past 6 weeks.

The knee-jerk reaction of the left to distance themselves from what they see as overt Nationalism, Nativism, and Fear plays well in the Cosmopolitan circles of media and coastal elites. It's very risky when you are playing to win those voters who don't have that mindset. The Democrats had better find solid footing with security concerns or they will find themselves hemorrhaging more votes to Trump.

Has it come so far, that we are hard pressed to find an American flag on the DNC stage?

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This quest for ideological purity will satisfy the those in the arena and media, but may cost the Democrats dearly in this week of rebuttal being broadcast to millions of jurors.


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Old 07-26-2016, 03:19 AM   #225
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I did not get a chance to watch all of the convention tonight. I want to see it all so I can make some fair assessments of how the dynamics of the race will unfold.

As most of you know I am voting for Trump. I have family-friends that are Trumpsters others that are solidly for Hillary. A few that are up for grabs.

From here on out its all about getting the messaging right for those people 'up for grabs'.

These are your working-class voters across the Midwest, suburban security moms, independents sick of the status quo. Yes the demographics are changing in the country benefiting Democrats. But each side needs to fight for those undecided white voters to push them to victory.

Right now the big polled issues are Security and the Economy. Tonight I saw the Dems checking off the Social Justice boxes to reinforce their base of support. I'm not sure if it moved the ball forward with the undecideds. Are these folks racists-xenophobes-homophobes? Some have those tendencies, but generationally I think we move away from past divisions to the point where many millennials (raised properly) are inoculated to historic racism.

I'm curious to see in the coming nights how the Democrats address the security concerns the undecideds have. Obama, Dems, and media called Trump's speech Doom and Gloom. Downplaying what they saw as fear-mongering. While over the weekend we have seen the emergence of a Intifada on German soil. Axe attack last week, shooting on Friday, machete attack, and suicide bombing in a wine bar Sunday ( Not strong enough to kill dozens, but critical injuries nonetheless ). The GOP presented a Law & Order platform ( decried as a dog whistle by critics ), but seems to have traction with voters after the unforeseen events of the past 6 weeks.

The knee-jerk reaction of the left to distance themselves from what they see as overt Nationalism, Nativism, and Fear plays well in the Cosmopolitan circles of media and coastal elites. It's very risky when you are playing to win those voters who don't have that mindset. The Democrats had better find solid footing with security concerns or they will find themselves hemorrhaging more votes to Trump.

Has it come so far, that we are hard pressed to find an American flag on the DNC stage?

Attachment 10806

This quest for ideological purity will satisfy the those in the arena and media, but may cost the Democrats dearly in this week of rebuttal being broadcast to millions of jurors.


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You talk about security being an issue for undecideds and you list all of these things that have happened recently.....no one is denying that there is a rash of scary shit happening in the world right now. No one. But the way it was presented in Trump's speech was in such a way as to provoke maximal fear and panic in those listening to it, setting it all up for 'I alone can fix it'.

And the kicker is he didn't say a damn thing about what he'd do to fix it.

It's laughable that anybody would thing security is a strength with this guy. He's going to stir up so much hatred for us in the world that we may well end up having more enemies than we've ever had before.

Also, you act like he's running against some kind of pacifist dove. One of the chief complaints about Hillary among the left is that she's too hawkish and too interventionist. Possibly moreso than Obama, to be honest.

As far as your point about nationalism.....nationalism is a kind of religion. It makes the country into a religion. It becomes a justification for things. Because America. People chant USA USA as if they're worshipping. In the GOP, there is this almost pathological need for the USA to be the greatest, most amazing, most powerful nation in the history of the universe, and if you suggest that it might've done some things that are wrong, that the rest of the world isn't thrilled with, then you're just an America-hater.

I love my country, but that kind of nationalism the GOP has practiced over the last decade or more is cultish, and is used to divide the us from the them. If Democrats are hesitant to embrace the flag, it's only because the GOP has made it into a political symbol of a kind of superficial, cultish nationalism that we don't wish to embrace.

I probably made some generalizations there, but the point stands.
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