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Old 07-06-2016, 10:20 AM   #181
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I actually would really like to hear your views because I myself struggle with this topic. I have to admit my struggle is on an intellectual level (as a lawyer I question the legality, the precedent being set and the broader implications) rather than on an emotional level. So I'm interested in hearing how other people have reconciled their own views.
My views on this essentially stem from my opposition to the US as an imperialist power (and this view is not limited to the US, I am fundamentally opposed to imperialism - it's not simple anti-Americanism). In addition to this, I have read accounts of innocent people's perspectives of being targeted by drones - and on an emotional level it's quite heartbreaking.

Looking at it on a more ethical level, and setting aside my already established beliefs for a moment, how can you be certain the drones are being utilised for the purpose of eliminating those who are deemed to be terrorists? Can you really trust the reports the state makes? Can you trust the data and the subsequent categories within it (for instance, the reported categorising of military aged men as potential enemy combatants unless proven otherwise)?

Even if I was theoretically supportive of drone strikes/intervention against US enemy combatants, I would still be concerned about the above.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:24 AM   #182
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In addition to this, I have read accounts of innocent people's perspectives of being targeted by drones - and on an emotional level it's quite heartbreaking.
Exactly what does this mean? Accounts of innocent people being missed targets? US drones?



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Old 07-06-2016, 10:30 AM   #183
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Exactly what does this mean? Accounts of innocent people being missed targets? US drones?



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Innocent people being missed targets/having no idea why they were being targeted.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:38 AM   #184
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Innocent people being missed targets/having no idea why they were being targeted.

I have some hesitation about this without hearing their stories. If they survived how do they know they were the targets?


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Old 07-06-2016, 10:42 AM   #185
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What's hard to understand? If you survived a drone strike on the building you live in, you would feel targeted, no?
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:43 AM   #186
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how can you be certain the drones are being utilised for the purpose of eliminating those who are deemed to be terrorists? Can you really trust the reports the state makes? Can you trust the data and the subsequent categories within it
I guess you can't trust it any more or less than you could fighter pilots shooting missiles based on the info on the screen in front of them (as was apparent in the Gold War).
I don't see what's so different about drones apart of perhaps slightly more possible system mistakes instead of human mistakes and besides that we inherently trust human beings more than machines even when machines are not prone to human errors.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:45 AM   #187
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I guess you can't trust it any more or less than you could fighter pilots shooting missiles based on the info on the screen in front of them (as was apparent in the Gold War).
I don't see what's so different about drones apart of perhaps slightly more possible system mistakes instead of human mistakes and besides that we inherently trust human beings more than machines even when machines are not prone to human errors.
The inherent risk of loss-of-life on your own end in a ground invasion makes you more hesitant to attack. That's not there with drone strikes. The concern would be that you overuse them because it doesn't cost you all that much when you do.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:51 AM   #188
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What's hard to understand? If you survived a drone strike on the building you live in, you would feel targeted, no?

Well there's a difference between being targeted and feeling targeted. It's a nasty gray line for sure, but that's why I was asking for clarification.


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Old 07-06-2016, 10:56 AM   #189
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I have some hesitation about this without hearing their stories. If they survived how do they know they were the targets?


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What's hard to understand? If you survived a drone strike on the building you live in, you would feel targeted, no?
And being targeted constantly/having attacks 'follow' you. Although the below is likely to be an uncommon case, as the author had barely avoided these.

I'm on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones | Voices | The Independent
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:16 AM   #190
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The inherent risk of loss-of-life on your own end in a ground invasion makes you more hesitant to attack. That's not there with drone strikes. The concern would be that you overuse them because it doesn't cost you all that much when you do.
I guess that makes sense.
Though I would prefer to compare it to airstrikes instead of ground invasion.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:41 AM   #191
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The inherent risk of loss-of-life on your own end in a ground invasion makes you more hesitant to attack. That's not there with drone strikes. The concern would be that you overuse them because it doesn't cost you all that much when you do.
Except we're not exactly using them in lieu of ground invasions.

It's new territory, and yes it has potential of being used recklessly. But it does offer precision and minimal loss of life if used correctly.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:48 PM   #192
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You're not wrong, but it's sort of beside the point I'm making, which is that the concern with drone strikes (and air strikes/missile strikes in general) is that we won't care as much about the collateral damage since we're not part of it. Are drone strikes more advanced and equipped to reduce collateral damage than the others? Sure, which is why they're preferable to those. But that feeling of comfort compared to the others also can lead to getting lax on deciding when they're appropriate. Using them more often, using them on lower priority targets, reducing the level of suspicion/evidence needed to approve a drone strike operation, etc.
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Old 07-06-2016, 01:02 PM   #193
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We can argue the grey area of drone strikes all day long. BUT, the reality is that we have one candidate that will continue the use of drones in about the same way as they are being used now, and one candidate that will most likely call for an immediate ground invasion of whatever country he believes from his Twitter feed are "terrorist countries", and then actually try to target the innocent families of terrorists, and will definitely seek to expand torture practices. In his words, we have to be the most vicious killers out there...

Those are the choices. i know mine
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Old 07-06-2016, 01:06 PM   #194
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I think you shouldn't take Donald Trump so seriously. He says half that shit (like targeting terrorists families) right after he pulls the comment out of his ass for a shock factor.

I think that's worse, but to give him credit for having a plan... I wouldn't do so.
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Old 07-06-2016, 01:10 PM   #195
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I think you shouldn't take Donald Trump so seriously. He says half that shit (like targeting terrorists families) right after he pulls the comment out of his ass for a shock factor.

I think that's worse, but to give him credit for having a plan... I wouldn't do so.
Well, I know he can't actually DO the things he says. But the only reason he can't is because there are current laws, treaties, guidelines, etc... to keep him from doing it. I do actually think he would do those things if he had free reign.
But the fact remains, that you would have someone in office with that level of disgustingness, dangerousness and complete disregard for a real solution. (I know there is probably no REAL solution, but some solutions are much better than others)
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