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Old 03-17-2016, 08:59 PM   #751
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Godwin's Law, in my humble opinion, is looking more than a little motheaten. Yes, sure, you'll always have the internet commenter who thinks anyone rightwing is Hitler: that kind of commentary can be safely disregarded.

But if the death of six million of (insert despised minority here) is the yardstick for useful analogies to a certain toxic twentieth century political movement, then, well, yeah. God help us. It took even the Nazis quite a few years to get the machine oiled and running, and elections had been cancelled long before that point. The point about fascism, or fascist-like movements, is that once you can actually point to a death camp or suspicious looking train cargo, it's far, far too late.

And I'm not sure political life in America isn't very nearly as polarised as during the sorry days of the Weimar Republic. Not sure of that at all. If there is a crucial difference it is the economic situation - which is hardly fantastic, merely not Weimar-style catastrophic.

Hitler was widely regarded as a joke in the 1920s, though he talked quite openly about what he wanted to do. It took the control of a state apparatus and thirteen years in power to acquire the aura of unique evil. In Trump's case, where he absolutely differs is that I don't think he believes strongly in anything at all except Trump. But you know, that may not be clear to everyone saluting at the rally.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:04 PM   #752
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And there's where Donald Trump's logic actually works -- you're being far too politically correct if you think a mere mention of Adolph Hitler is taboo or offensive. Nobody is calling Trump out for preparing a genocide.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:13 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
I'm happy to admit there are some similarities, and also willing to admit that he's doing shit like the salute on purpose to stir people up because he's just such a powerful media manipulator, but they're completely superficial, as iYup points out in his later post.

We all know about Godwin's Law. It doesn't just apply to 4chan discussions. Trump is an arsehole, but until he systematically kills six million Muslims then put the lazy, haphazard comparisons to bed. It's reactionary and immediately assures your argument invalid. There are 17 million things to criticise Trump for. Pick one of them, not just call him Hitler cos he's an utter shithead.
So here's the thing to shit on your argument...

They didn't think it would happen in Germany, either.

So while I don't think it will happen here, the similarities frightening me enough to take action.

And may I sternly state for the record that I'm no liberal. But what Trump is preaching is frightening beyond anything we've seen in this country in a long long time.

It must be stopped.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:14 PM   #754
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What is the use in comparing him to Hitler, though? Trump is a unique politician in a unique political and historical situation. Looking at potential responses to him in the light of Weimar Germany, even if he came out and explicitly said that his highest ambition in the world is to imitate Hitler, only distracts from the need to employ modern methods to stop him. The two situations - Weimar Germany and modern US - being wildly different is the most important point here.

And yes, I get that Trump is manipulating media in a frightening way. But what is lost in that conversation IMO is that there is a massive wing of left-leaning media dedicated to exposing his every misstep whenever and however they can. That is an important counterweight that did not exist as such in Nazi times.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:36 PM   #755
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What is the use in comparing him to Hitler, though? Trump is a unique politician in a unique political and historical situation. Looking at potential responses to him in the light of Weimar Germany, even if he came out and explicitly said that his highest ambition in the world is to imitate Hitler, only distracts from the need to employ modern methods to stop him. The two situations - Weimar Germany and modern US - being wildly different is the most important point here.

And yes, I get that Trump is manipulating media in a frightening way. But what is lost in that conversation IMO is that there is a massive wing of left-leaning media dedicated to exposing his every misstep whenever and however they can. That is an important counterweight that did not exist as such in Nazi times.
The people who are for Trump don't care about his 'missteps'. They simply do not care.

And while I'm not wholly indifferent to the larger point here, I could as easily say, why compare anything to anything? Every day's a new day, right? Even historians argue over this sort of stuff, to what extent can useful parallels be drawn.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:46 PM   #756
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Let's just hope that we don't have any Paris-style attacks in the US, or worse, between now and the election (or ever).

I agree that the modern US has little in common with Weimar Germany, but I would caution against underestimating what more mass death on the streets of a major American city could do to a population.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:18 PM   #757
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What is the use in comparing him to Hitler, though? Trump is a unique politician in a unique political and historical situation. Looking at potential responses to him in the light of Weimar Germany, even if he came out and explicitly said that his highest ambition in the world is to imitate Hitler, only distracts from the need to employ modern methods to stop him. The two situations - Weimar Germany and modern US - being wildly different is the most important point here.

And yes, I get that Trump is manipulating media in a frightening way. But what is lost in that conversation IMO is that there is a massive wing of left-leaning media dedicated to exposing his every misstep whenever and however they can. That is an important counterweight that did not exist as such in Nazi times.

Just like your misunderstanding of the civil war, you're not understanding the overall context. You're missing the big picture by focusing on the smaller details.

This is by no means a "left wing media" thing, if you're paying attention many of the right wing media are doing the same. And when all three agreeing at some level, that should put off alarms.

This IS the closest we have actually had on US soil that fits this overused comparison.


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Old 03-17-2016, 11:21 PM   #758
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A populist demagogue is not necessarily a fascist.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:27 PM   #759
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I mean, you can't take the comparisons to Hitler too far, there are some to be sure. But it's not like there are brownshirts marching around silencing opponents. The campaign rhetoric has a few similarities but that's as far as you can really take it. A comparison to Hitler in power, much less at the end of WWII, is asinine.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:29 PM   #760
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part VI

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
This IS the closest we have actually had on US soil that fits this overused comparison.

But it's not even close. It isn't 19 fucking 39. Trump is not going to go "lol sucked in I'm actually a fascist" upon being sworn in and systematically murder millions of a minority population. iYup is right - there now exists many platforms for those in opposition to speak out. Trump is not going to be able to wipe out all opposition and run a dictatorship.

Yes, there are similarities. But it is not at all helpful to just yell TRUMP IS HITLER into the wind. There's nowhere to go from there.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:29 PM   #761
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I mean, you can't take the comparisons to Hitler too far, there are some to be sure. But it's not like there are brownshirts marching around silencing opponents. The campaign rhetoric has a few similarities but that's as far as you can really take it. A comparison to Hitler in power, much less at the end of WWII, is asinine.

Thank you.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:34 PM   #762
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:43 PM   #763
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But it's not even close. It isn't 19 fucking 39. Trump is not going to go "lol sucked in I'm actually a fascist" upon being sworn in and systematically murder millions of a minority population. iYup is right - there now exists many platforms for those in opposition to speak out. Trump is not going to be able to wipe out all opposition and run a dictatorship.

Yes, there are similarities. But it is not at all helpful to just yell TRUMP IS HITLER into the wind. There's nowhere to go from there.

But I don't think that's what anyone is saying. Like lucky said, this isn't a Hitler = Holocaust comparison. This is about an obvious authoritarian who can undeniably lie over and over to the public and still have a blind devotion based on an anger and hatred to Muslims and Mexicans stealing their jobs.

You can't focus on the aftermath of Hitler, but how he was allowed to get there.


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Old 03-17-2016, 11:49 PM   #764
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The better comparison might be George Wallace.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:55 PM   #765
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I think it was Irvine a few pages back who asked what evidence there is that anyone outside of the current Trump enthusiasts will be won over to his side. And that is a salient question that bears repeating.

There is nothing to suggest that this will be a case of a critical mass of sheep flocking to a hate-monger. What allowed for that in Germany was the horrendous economic conditions, conditions that were infinitely worse than anything we have seen in the USA since the Great Depression. If you want to talk about "context," that is the most substantial issue at play here.
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