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Old 02-10-2016, 01:19 PM   #76
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Wait, isn't Hillary now against the TPP?

Yeah, she's against the TPP because she's running against Sanders.

Which actually gets to a more fundamental issue in my mind: it's not like Clinton and Sanders would have that different of an effect on policy. The Republicans have the House until 2020 and will likely have at least 40 Senate votes through 2024, which means that little if any left-leaning legislation will be passed under either Sanders or Clinton.

So that's not really why I'm supporting Clinton. I'm supporting her because I believe that she will provide saner ideological leadership to the country and the Democratic Party, especially when she stops pandering, which she's obviously doing now.

As I type that, I realize just how cynical a statement it is.


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Old 02-10-2016, 01:19 PM   #77
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I haven't seen much of it. The only people I've noticed noticing it are people actively looking for it.

i may have a more fundamentally liberal friend base on facebook than you do, but my feed is flooded with Sanders supporters posting about how awful/terrible/horrible Hillary is, how they won't vote at all if she's the nominee, etc. obviously these are generalizations, and the loudest voices get all the attention, but i don't remember anything like this in 2008 even amongst the PUMAs.

what i'm most interested in, and where i see the most parallels with the Tea Party, is the PINO charges -- Progressive in Name Only -- and the virtue of purity above all else.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:21 PM   #78
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part V

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my feed is flooded with Sanders supporters posting about how awful/terrible/horrible Hillary is, how they won't vote at all if she's the nominee, etc.

This is why Republicans want Hillary to win the Dem nomination.


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Old 02-10-2016, 01:21 PM   #79
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We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.
No. Just...so much no.

Setting aside his stance on various policies for a moment, which I strongly disagree with, any guy who thinks making a stupid video showing him proudly brandishing a machine gun and showing how he can "make bacon" with it is proof of how badass and tough he is...I don't want someone like that running our country.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:22 PM   #80
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Who says that? Trump? Republican establishment? Liberals? Of course they do. Everyone in Washington hates him because he's taking the Washington machine head on and winning. We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.


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everyone who went to Princeton with him seems to hate him.

there's also this:

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Old 02-10-2016, 01:23 PM   #81
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No. Just...so much no.



Setting aside his stance on various policies for a moment, which I strongly disagree with, any guy who thinks making a stupid video showing him proudly brandishing a machine gun and showing how he can "make bacon" with it is proof of how badass and tough he is...I don't want someone like that running our country.

I liked the video myself. I thought it was pretty entertaining.


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Old 02-10-2016, 01:24 PM   #82
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This is why Republicans want Hillary to win the Dem nomination.

my general understanding is they'd prefer to run against a 74-year old socialist from one of the smallest, whitest, most liberal states in the nation.

also, as an aside, DC has a bigger population than VT (and WY). but NO congressional representation. it's a crime.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:25 PM   #83
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but this is exactly the point i was making.
My issue with your entire line of thinking is that you're taking one poster on an Internet forum and "some things I've seen on Facebook" as evidence that there is this huge swath of Sanders supporters that are Tea Party-esque left wing radicals. I simply don't see it and am growing a bit frustrated and tired of that portrayal. I consider myself pretty tuned into the left on the Internet, and I really don't see it. I saw an article somewhere recently admonishing Sanders for his followers that was based entirely on two (2) comments from Facebook. I think this hemming and hawing is largely overblown, and not based in any real concerns.

Here's what I am saying: If you want to go after Sanders, do it for the viability of his economic policy or for concerns about how he would deal with foreign policy. Let's debate that. Don't rip him because you saw a few assholes on Facebook be assholes.

I anticipate the response to this post being something akin to "It's a lot more than a few examples," and if that is the case, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. And likely probably not participate in much back-and-forth on the issue with each other, which is unfortunate. But I refuse to engage on this much longer, because "Bernie Bros" and similar narratives simply are not a legitimate issue.
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Who says that? Trump? Republican establishment? Liberals? Of course they do. Everyone in Washington hates him because he's taking the Washington machine head on and winning. We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.
Nearly everyone who knew him at all in college, for starters. And they all say he's exactly the same now as he was then.

Cruz would do major, major damage to this country, probably more than any other Republican candidate, Trump included.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:28 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i may have a more fundamentally liberal friend base on facebook than you do, but my feed is flooded with Sanders supporters posting about how awful/terrible/horrible Hillary is, how they won't vote at all if she's the nominee, etc. obviously these are generalizations, and the loudest voices get all the attention, but i don't remember anything like this in 2008 even amongst the PUMAs.

what i'm most interested in, and where i see the most parallels with the Tea Party, is the PINO charges -- Progressive in Name Only -- and the virtue of purity above all else.
Well, my question to that would be: what are they saying about her? Is it sexist nonsense, or is it legitimate critiques of her record and connections?

I will say it did bother me that Sanders brought that progressive thing up, but in his defense Hillary's citation in the debate for being a progressive was "I'm trying to be the first woman president," which is more than a little ridiculous.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:33 PM   #85
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part V

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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
everyone who went to Princeton with him seems to hate him.



there's also this:



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Old 02-10-2016, 01:35 PM   #86
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I don't. At least not some of his supporters. The intensity and rigidity and demonization of Hillary would make a Republican proud.

I'm a big Bernie fan, but so many of his supporters are the stereotypical Bernie Bro. One of my best friends turned into a Bernie Bro and now constantly posts articles on Facebook about how Hillary sucks and is a racist, and blah blah blah. Seriously, some of his supporters can be insufferable sometimes.


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Old 02-10-2016, 01:37 PM   #87
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I must also clarify that I don't use Facebook that often and my social media of choice is Twitter, so that's where I am engaging on a lot of this. That said, my Twitter timeline couldn't be more liberal. I think the main difference between my timeline and that of one on Irvine's Facebook is probably age more than political views, though I could be totally wrong.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:39 PM   #88
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Who says that? Trump? Republican establishment? Liberals? Of course they do. Everyone in Washington hates him because he's taking the Washington machine head on and winning. We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.


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http://m.motherjones.com/politics/20...ruz-jerk-hated

"The Bush vet goes on: "I don't know anyone who had a decent relationship with Cruz." And when Bush became president, his top campaign aides agreed Cruz should not be offered a job in the White House. "No one wanted to work with him," this source remembers. "George W. Bush couldn't stand the guy." This person adds, "It's a real quandary for Bush campaign people: Trump versus Cruz, who to vote for? And it would be a big quandary even if it's Cruz versus Hillary Clinton. That's how much they cannot stand him.""




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Old 02-10-2016, 01:47 PM   #89
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My issue with your entire line of thinking is that you're taking one poster on an Internet forum and "some things I've seen on Facebook" as evidence that there is this huge swath of Sanders supporters that are Tea Party-esque left wing radicals. I simply don't see it and am growing a bit frustrated and tired of that portrayal. I consider myself pretty tuned into the left on the Internet, and I really don't see it. I saw an article somewhere recently admonishing Sanders for his followers that was based entirely on two (2) comments from Facebook. I think this hemming and hawing is largely overblown, and not based in any real concerns.

i do see it, and while i agree that it is a small number of people, it's not something that i can remember being a part of democratic politics up until now, but it IS something that we saw in 2010 in GOP politics. i don't see policy positions that are the left wing equivalents of the Tea Party (not even sure what that would be), but i see the same structures at play. several people in here have commented on the aggressiveness of Sanders supporters, so this isn't coming out of nowhere. we can ponder the scope, but we cannot argue that it is or isn't "a thing."


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Here's what I am saying: If you want to go after Sanders, do it for the viability of his economic policy or for concerns about how he would deal with foreign policy. Let's debate that. Don't rip him because you saw a few assholes on Facebook be assholes.
not sure if you're addressing me in particular, but i haven't been all that critical of Sanders, and in fact have openly pondered who to vote for. i don't think i've actually "ripped" Bernie himself anywhere, and have consistently done what you say i haven't -- debated the viability of his economic policies and my concerns about his grasp on foreign policy. i don't think it's fair to take a small issue and present that as if that is the only thing i've offered.



Quote:
I anticipate the response to this post being something akin to "It's a lot more than a few examples," and if that is the case, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. And likely probably not participate in much back-and-forth on the issue with each other, which is unfortunate. But I refuse to engage on this much longer, because "Bernie Bros" and similar narratives simply are not a legitimate issue.

you know, that's fine. my beef, as stated, is the growing strain of ideological purity that has so far not had much voice in the Democratic party -- when you have to sew together a broad coalition of blacks, gays, single women, labor unions, etc., you have to make compromises and often settle for least worst options in order to win office. what i am seeing amongst a small but real section of Sanders supporters feels more at home in the GOP of 2010 and 2014 than in the Democratic Party i've known. i'm not going to not comment on it in a discussion forum.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:48 PM   #90
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The media has it out for Cruz, which is why CNN aired that. Give him a break, him and his family aren't professional actors.

"the media!" that's what we hear whenever we hear what we don't want to hear.

i disagree -- i think Cruz is a professional actor.
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