2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part V

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Clinton gets old people that are barely informed.

Clinton gets rich people that call themselves Democrats but don't want to pay higher taxes.

Clinton supposedly also has black people in her camp thanks to being associated with the Obama administration, but we'll see what happens when South Carolina rolls around.

That's it.
This is as simplistic and dismissive as Irvine's post. Clinton's supporters are more diverse than you realize (Democrats in general are much more diverse than Republicans in the first place, but I digress). I think there are Clinton supporters who like that she has foreign policy experience and diplomatic relations already established because of that. She has worked in multiple branches of government. She is, in theory, a more appealing option for centrists because her ideas are not "radical" and "far left" like Bernie's. The job won't be too big for her, and there is comfort in that in the minds of a lot of people.

There is a very real and legitimate fear that if Sanders is the Democratic nominee that all hell will break loose and we could end up with a Republican president and a disastrous next four years of foreign policy blunders and a crippling swing in the Supreme Court.
 
And this is why Bernie Sanders supporters annoy the hell out of me. Hell, I think they annoy him as well.

I like Bernie, but yeah, his supporters can definitely be rather...forceful.

Mind, that whole thing recently with Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright in regards to why women should support Hilary left a rather sour taste in my mouth, too. People getting pushy in their stumping for any candidate is pretty obnoxious.

To be honest, I can't get excited about this election at all, as opposed to 2008. Can we just have a 3rd Obama term, please?

I kinda feel the same way. I'm voting Democrat no matter who wins the nomination, but there's not the excitement for it that there was with Obama. I was honestly excited to get out and vote for him in 2008, and I was happy to vote for him again in 2012. I wouldn't complain about him sticking around longer if such a thing were possible.

(Or, barring that, if we could get Michelle to be president somehow. I'd be all for her running the country, too.)
 
I like Bernie, but yeah, his supporters can definitely be rather...forceful.

Mind, that whole thing recently with Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright in regards to why women should support Hilary left a rather sour taste in my mouth, too. People getting pushy in their stumping for any candidate is pretty obnoxious.



I kinda feel the same way. I'm voting Democrat no matter who wins the nomination, but there's not the excitement for it that there was with Obama. I was honestly excited to get out and vote for him in 2008, and I was happy to vote for him again in 2012. I wouldn't complain about him sticking around longer if such a thing were possible.

(Or, barring that, if we could get Michelle to be president somehow. I'd be all for her running the country, too.)

Yeah, don't even get me started on Steinem. Like I said, I'm voting Hillary in the Primary, but it's insulting to say women can't make up their own damn minds about a candidate. I don't vote for a candidate just because they are a woman, or Latina/o, or have brown eyes. I vote because I believe they are the best person for the job. Would it be great to see a woman be president? Yes, as long as it's not Palin, Bachman, Fiorino, etc.
 
I find it somewhat thoughtless and very inaccurate to compare Sanders and his supporters to the Tea Party.



I don't. At least not some of his supporters. The intensity and rigidity and demonization of Hillary would make a Republican proud.
 
Whatever the source, they're still rolling in cash - and fixated on it or on sourcing donations - compared to here. It's weird looking at how often American pollies ask for money. You won't hear that much here, what with public campaign funding, donation limits, etc.


Interesting. In the US cash is needed to purchase blocks of commercial advertising in different media markets. Rates vary based on city size and time of day that an ad airs. That's where most of our money goes. Add to that jet travel across a large country. It's the model of our system here, not sure how much it resembles yours.


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I'd vote for Ted as well. I don't vote for Democrats.


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Same. I also agree with Cruz on nearly every policy out there. I met him whenever he was running for senate in 2012 and I've been a big fan ever since. Since Rand Paul is out, I'm still deciding between him and Rubio on March 1.


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Exactly, trojan.

And that clip of Gloria on Bill Maher's show talking about how young women are going to the Bernie rallies to meet boys, implying they're not taking this as seriously? Like, WTF kind of reasoning is that :huh:?


They'll be disappointed when they get to the Bernie rally only to find Pajama Boy
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It's fairly ridiculous.



My husband, who is typically a conservative voter, though he has on occasion voted for the Greens, is a very strong fiscal conservative who doesn't care at all about social issues. He is on the liberal side of social issues but doesn't attach great importance to them when he votes, he's much more concerned about debt, deficits and the economy. He is an economist who works for an international bank. And he will flat out tell you that in his opinion (keep in mind this is a man who does not vote for left or centre-left parties as a general rule), everything Bernie Sanders says about the financial world and income inequality is 100% correct, the issue really is whether his plans/ideas for fixing it could make things even worse. And it's not a secret either among financial elites that they pretty much recognize the same.



So the idea that he is some lunatic or his followers are comparable to Tea Partiers who share e-mails of the Obamas looking like monkeys and who want to keep Muslims out and build walls to keep Mexican racists out and are paranoid about Sharia Law is frankly very laughable.





Obviously it's not an exact comparison, but the demanding of purity from a candidate and charges of RINO-ism are absolutely the same blueprint. In my various travels through the internet you se the same witchy, cackling pictures of HRC posted by Sanders supporters that would make good old diamond proud. There's also a strong current of "the corporate media lies!" straight out of the Tea Party playbook.

The goals are different but the tactics are the same. We have posters in these threads giving us exactly what I'm talking about.
 
Fuck Ted Cruz. Beyond having horrible policy positions, anyone who has spent more than a little time with him seems to be in agreement that he is a nightmare of a human being.
 
Fuck Ted Cruz. Beyond having horrible policy positions, anyone who has spent more than a little time with him seems to be in agreement that he is a nightmare of a human being.


Who says that? Trump? Republican establishment? Liberals? Of course they do. Everyone in Washington hates him because he's taking the Washington machine head on and winning. We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.


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Wait, isn't Hillary now against the TPP?


Yeah, she's against the TPP because she's running against Sanders.

Which actually gets to a more fundamental issue in my mind: it's not like Clinton and Sanders would have that different of an effect on policy. The Republicans have the House until 2020 and will likely have at least 40 Senate votes through 2024, which means that little if any left-leaning legislation will be passed under either Sanders or Clinton.

So that's not really why I'm supporting Clinton. I'm supporting her because I believe that she will provide saner ideological leadership to the country and the Democratic Party, especially when she stops pandering, which she's obviously doing now.

As I type that, I realize just how cynical a statement it is.


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I haven't seen much of it. The only people I've noticed noticing it are people actively looking for it.


i may have a more fundamentally liberal friend base on facebook than you do, but my feed is flooded with Sanders supporters posting about how awful/terrible/horrible Hillary is, how they won't vote at all if she's the nominee, etc. obviously these are generalizations, and the loudest voices get all the attention, but i don't remember anything like this in 2008 even amongst the PUMAs.

what i'm most interested in, and where i see the most parallels with the Tea Party, is the PINO charges -- Progressive in Name Only -- and the virtue of purity above all else.
 
my feed is flooded with Sanders supporters posting about how awful/terrible/horrible Hillary is, how they won't vote at all if she's the nominee, etc.


This is why Republicans want Hillary to win the Dem nomination.


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We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.

No. Just...so much no.

Setting aside his stance on various policies for a moment, which I strongly disagree with, any guy who thinks making a stupid video showing him proudly brandishing a machine gun and showing how he can "make bacon" with it is proof of how badass and tough he is...I don't want someone like that running our country.
 
Who says that? Trump? Republican establishment? Liberals? Of course they do. Everyone in Washington hates him because he's taking the Washington machine head on and winning. We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.


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everyone who went to Princeton with him seems to hate him.

there's also this:

 
No. Just...so much no.



Setting aside his stance on various policies for a moment, which I strongly disagree with, any guy who thinks making a stupid video showing him proudly brandishing a machine gun and showing how he can "make bacon" with it is proof of how badass and tough he is...I don't want someone like that running our country.


I liked the video myself. I thought it was pretty entertaining.


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This is why Republicans want Hillary to win the Dem nomination.


my general understanding is they'd prefer to run against a 74-year old socialist from one of the smallest, whitest, most liberal states in the nation.

also, as an aside, DC has a bigger population than VT (and WY). but NO congressional representation. it's a crime.
 
but this is exactly the point i was making.
My issue with your entire line of thinking is that you're taking one poster on an Internet forum and "some things I've seen on Facebook" as evidence that there is this huge swath of Sanders supporters that are Tea Party-esque left wing radicals. I simply don't see it and am growing a bit frustrated and tired of that portrayal. I consider myself pretty tuned into the left on the Internet, and I really don't see it. I saw an article somewhere recently admonishing Sanders for his followers that was based entirely on two (2) comments from Facebook. I think this hemming and hawing is largely overblown, and not based in any real concerns.

Here's what I am saying: If you want to go after Sanders, do it for the viability of his economic policy or for concerns about how he would deal with foreign policy. Let's debate that. Don't rip him because you saw a few assholes on Facebook be assholes.

I anticipate the response to this post being something akin to "It's a lot more than a few examples," and if that is the case, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. And likely probably not participate in much back-and-forth on the issue with each other, which is unfortunate. But I refuse to engage on this much longer, because "Bernie Bros" and similar narratives simply are not a legitimate issue.
Who says that? Trump? Republican establishment? Liberals? Of course they do. Everyone in Washington hates him because he's taking the Washington machine head on and winning. We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.
Nearly everyone who knew him at all in college, for starters. And they all say he's exactly the same now as he was then.

Cruz would do major, major damage to this country, probably more than any other Republican candidate, Trump included.
 
i may have a more fundamentally liberal friend base on facebook than you do, but my feed is flooded with Sanders supporters posting about how awful/terrible/horrible Hillary is, how they won't vote at all if she's the nominee, etc. obviously these are generalizations, and the loudest voices get all the attention, but i don't remember anything like this in 2008 even amongst the PUMAs.

what i'm most interested in, and where i see the most parallels with the Tea Party, is the PINO charges -- Progressive in Name Only -- and the virtue of purity above all else.
Well, my question to that would be: what are they saying about her? Is it sexist nonsense, or is it legitimate critiques of her record and connections?

I will say it did bother me that Sanders brought that progressive thing up, but in his defense Hillary's citation in the debate for being a progressive was "I'm trying to be the first woman president," which is more than a little ridiculous.
 
everyone who went to Princeton with him seems to hate him.



there's also this:






Oh, c'mon. You know that every politician has those same "behind the scenes" clips somewhere; they just don't get released to the public. The media has it out for Cruz, which is why CNN aired that. Give him a break, him and his family aren't professional actors.


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I don't. At least not some of his supporters. The intensity and rigidity and demonization of Hillary would make a Republican proud.


I'm a big Bernie fan, but so many of his supporters are the stereotypical Bernie Bro. One of my best friends turned into a Bernie Bro and now constantly posts articles on Facebook about how Hillary sucks and is a racist, and blah blah blah. Seriously, some of his supporters can be insufferable sometimes.


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I must also clarify that I don't use Facebook that often and my social media of choice is Twitter, so that's where I am engaging on a lot of this. That said, my Twitter timeline couldn't be more liberal. I think the main difference between my timeline and that of one on Irvine's Facebook is probably age more than political views, though I could be totally wrong.
 
Who says that? Trump? Republican establishment? Liberals? Of course they do. Everyone in Washington hates him because he's taking the Washington machine head on and winning. We would be blessed as a nation to have Ted Cruz as our next president.


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http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ted-cruz-jerk-hated

"The Bush vet goes on: "I don't know anyone who had a decent relationship with Cruz." And when Bush became president, his top campaign aides agreed Cruz should not be offered a job in the White House. "No one wanted to work with him," this source remembers. "George W. Bush couldn't stand the guy." This person adds, "It's a real quandary for Bush campaign people: Trump versus Cruz, who to vote for? And it would be a big quandary even if it's Cruz versus Hillary Clinton. That's how much they cannot stand him.""




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My issue with your entire line of thinking is that you're taking one poster on an Internet forum and "some things I've seen on Facebook" as evidence that there is this huge swath of Sanders supporters that are Tea Party-esque left wing radicals. I simply don't see it and am growing a bit frustrated and tired of that portrayal. I consider myself pretty tuned into the left on the Internet, and I really don't see it. I saw an article somewhere recently admonishing Sanders for his followers that was based entirely on two (2) comments from Facebook. I think this hemming and hawing is largely overblown, and not based in any real concerns.


i do see it, and while i agree that it is a small number of people, it's not something that i can remember being a part of democratic politics up until now, but it IS something that we saw in 2010 in GOP politics. i don't see policy positions that are the left wing equivalents of the Tea Party (not even sure what that would be), but i see the same structures at play. several people in here have commented on the aggressiveness of Sanders supporters, so this isn't coming out of nowhere. we can ponder the scope, but we cannot argue that it is or isn't "a thing."


Here's what I am saying: If you want to go after Sanders, do it for the viability of his economic policy or for concerns about how he would deal with foreign policy. Let's debate that. Don't rip him because you saw a few assholes on Facebook be assholes.

not sure if you're addressing me in particular, but i haven't been all that critical of Sanders, and in fact have openly pondered who to vote for. i don't think i've actually "ripped" Bernie himself anywhere, and have consistently done what you say i haven't -- debated the viability of his economic policies and my concerns about his grasp on foreign policy. i don't think it's fair to take a small issue and present that as if that is the only thing i've offered.



I anticipate the response to this post being something akin to "It's a lot more than a few examples," and if that is the case, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. And likely probably not participate in much back-and-forth on the issue with each other, which is unfortunate. But I refuse to engage on this much longer, because "Bernie Bros" and similar narratives simply are not a legitimate issue.


you know, that's fine. my beef, as stated, is the growing strain of ideological purity that has so far not had much voice in the Democratic party -- when you have to sew together a broad coalition of blacks, gays, single women, labor unions, etc., you have to make compromises and often settle for least worst options in order to win office. what i am seeing amongst a small but real section of Sanders supporters feels more at home in the GOP of 2010 and 2014 than in the Democratic Party i've known. i'm not going to not comment on it in a discussion forum.
 
The media has it out for Cruz, which is why CNN aired that. Give him a break, him and his family aren't professional actors.


"the media!" that's what we hear whenever we hear what we don't want to hear.

i disagree -- i think Cruz is a professional actor.
 
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