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Old 06-10-2016, 04:57 PM   #751
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Insisting that your ideas are the only ones that could possibly be correct and everyone else is wrong is not how democracies work. That's how dictatorships work, actually.
This is incredibly rich given the outright dismissiveness with which anything other than full support for Clinton has been treated in this forum.
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Old 06-10-2016, 04:58 PM   #752
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This is incredibly rich given the outright dismissiveness with which anything other than full support for Clinton has been treated in this forum.
Oh stop.

The majority of the pro Clinton rah rah has been in direct response to the Sanders or bust bullshit of one poster.

I in no way believe that Hillary Clinton is our best option for president. I only believe that she's the best option of what's available. And a large part of that is because she's not a pure leftist. Anyone who's so far in either direction frightens me. They have zero ability to come to a middle ground, and frankly can kiss my ass.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:16 PM   #753
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Oh stop.

The majority of the pro Clinton rah rah has been in direct response to the Sanders or bust bullshit of one poster.

I in no way believe that Hillary Clinton is our best option for president. I only believe that she's the best option of what's available. And a large part of that is because she's not a pure leftist. Anyone who's so far in either direction frightens me. They have zero ability to come to a middle ground, and frankly can kiss my ass.
Right, all that venom about Sanders and his supporters in here, all this incredulity about why they won't fall in line behind Clinton, is the result of BigMacPhisto and nothing else? That stretches belief.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:17 PM   #754
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This is incredibly rich given the outright dismissiveness with which anything other than full support for Clinton has been treated in this forum.
Really?! First off, there's very little 'full support for Clinton' in here, I think most have voiced that their vote for Clinton isn't exactly an enthusiastic one, just a realistic one given the choices. Secondly, there has been no 'outright dismissiveness' there have been several attempts to engage with certain individuals to no avail.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:21 PM   #755
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Right, all that venom about Sanders and his supporters in here, all this incredulity about why they won't fall in line behind Clinton, is the result of BigMacPhisto and nothing else? That stretches belief.
I would say it comes down to BigMac and the fact that he mirrors a lot of what many of us are seeing outside of here as well. And to me it has nothing to do with "falling in line" but their hypocrisy and entitlement.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:22 PM   #756
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Right, all that venom about Sanders and his supporters in here, all this incredulity about why they won't fall in line behind Clinton, is the result of BigMacPhisto and nothing else? That stretches belief.
It kind of is the result of BigMacPhisto. I've voiced a couple times how over the top Bernie folks are on Facebook but have left it at that, but then Big Mac came along and basically made it tough to take that side seriously whatsoever. If you had a problem with it, probably should have addressed Big Mac earlier on.

I'm not a huge Hilary fan, not really inspired by her, but will be voting for her since she seems more grounded.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:22 PM   #757
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Secondly, there has been no 'outright dismissiveness' there have been several attempts to engage with certain individuals to no avail.
Meaning they simply haven't come around to your point of view. Whether you want to realize it or not, a good part of what galvanizes the far right and left alike is exactly the kind of rhetoric in this thread, where anyone who supports Trump must be a bigot or an ignoramus, or anyone who supports Bernie must be a dreamer with no sense of the bigger picture.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:33 PM   #758
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Meaning they simply haven't come around to your point of view. Whether you want to realize it or not, a good part of what galvanizes the far right and left alike is exactly the kind of rhetoric in this thread, where anyone who supports Trump must be a bigot or an ignoramus, or anyone who supports Bernie must be a dreamer with no sense of the bigger picture.


This post is as polarizing as you say the rhetoric is. I don't think you're fairly characterizing what's gone on in here the past 6+ months. Plus, participation has shrunk exponentially compared to the past, so things in here really are person-to-person rather than aimed broadly. And BMP really has given us a great example of the "Bernie Bro" we've heard about in the media, so there's been a pile up, which he seems to love. So this goes both ways. I can think of two other Sanders supporters who have been treated more than fairly.

In fact, I've felt like I've had to qualify and explain away my gathering support for HRC, if only to avoid "YOU'VE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND AND DID YEARS AGO JUST LIKE THE MEDIA WHY WONT YOU ADMIT SHE'S UNLIKEABLE YOU ARENT HONEST IF YOU WONT ADMIT THAT."

I think, at this point, many people have reached a conclusion after a long primary, like the voters. And they are defending their position.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:36 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
Meaning they simply haven't come around to your point of view. Whether you want to realize it or not, a good part of what galvanizes the far right and left alike is exactly the kind of rhetoric in this thread, where anyone who supports Trump must be a bigot or an ignoramus, or anyone who supports Bernie must be a dreamer with no sense of the bigger picture.
No, meaning there have been attempts to engage, In fact being told outright they weren't here to try and win hearts over or give reason to understand their views.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:07 PM   #760
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
Meaning they simply haven't come around to your point of view. Whether you want to realize it or not, a good part of what galvanizes the far right and left alike is exactly the kind of rhetoric in this thread, where anyone who supports Trump must be a bigot or an ignoramus, or anyone who supports Bernie must be a dreamer with no sense of the bigger picture.
Meaning the far left and the far right don't want to be engaged. That's why they're the far left and the far right, and that's why neither has any business running this country.

The middle left will push us further to the left than the far left ever will. This isn't some small European country. It takes time and compromise. Anything else is ideological pipe dream bullshit.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:19 PM   #761
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
This is incredibly rich given the outright dismissiveness with which anything other than full support for Clinton has been treated in this forum.
i know, right? i don't see where this "we don't necessarily support clinton wholeheartedly" thing comes from. maybe i just have a bad memory (no sass, this is possible) or i'm just not paying attention.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:20 PM   #762
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The middle left will push us further to the left than the far left ever will. This isn't some small European country. It takes time and compromise. Anything else is ideological pipe dream bullshit.
Holy hell, do you really not see the contradiction in espousing compromise in one sentence and then referencing "ideological pipe dream bullshit" in the next?
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:36 PM   #763
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Holy hell, do you really not see the contradiction in espousing compromise in one sentence and then referencing "ideological pipe dream bullshit" in the next?
No, I don't.

If you are only willing to see your side of a certain ideology, then you're not willing to compromise. So yea, no.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:44 PM   #764
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Compromise doesn't mean "hey, we just got our asses kicked and in no way represent the greater good of the party, but want our policies met wholly... or else!"

Compromise is "hey, maybe the majority wants this instead of what we want. But what about this this and this on exchange for that to bring us somewhat close together? Great, thanks for compromising!"
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:16 PM   #765
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I can understand concerns from those on the left about trying to compromise with those on the right, because we've all seen how utterly resistant (to put it mildly) the Republican Party has been to even try and compromise with Obama on virtually ANYTHING during the entire time he's been president. There's no question that whomever won the Democratic nomination would have an uphill battle ahead trying to work with them.

But it seems some Bernie supporters (speaking in a general sense, from my own experience online) aren't even willing to try and find areas of compromise with Hilary, and that I don't get. Yeah, she may not fit someone's specific definition of a true "liberal" or "progressive", but the fact remains that she IS on the Democratic side, and works for that party, and HAS supported things that people on the left do support (as some people here have already pointed out in thorough detail). And I'm pretty confident if people on the left make it abundantly clear to her that issues x, y, and z are the most important ones that deserve attention and action, she will follow suit and do what she can to push through legislation supporting them.

It's going to be even harder to figure out how to deal with an uncompromising right when the left is struggling to find compromise within its own ranks. I think it's worth at least giving her the chance to prove she's genuinely willing to listen to what liberals/progressives want, and I feel some people aren't all that keen on letting her try. I get that her past is concerning to a lot of people on the left, and understandably so, but if we were going to dismiss every single politician who might prove helpful in some way, shape, or form, because of how they voted on an issue in the past or where their money's going, we'd have, like, nobody left to vote for.

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In fact, I've felt like I've had to qualify and explain away my gathering support for HRC, if only to avoid "YOU'VE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND AND DID YEARS AGO JUST LIKE THE MEDIA WHY WONT YOU ADMIT SHE'S UNLIKEABLE YOU ARENT HONEST IF YOU WONT ADMIT THAT."
Exactly. I have no problem with the fact people support Bernie, I totally get why he holds appeal for people, and I like the guy as well. I agree with his stances, and I appreciate the idealism and hope his campaign has inspired in people. I like seeing people genuinely enthused and passionate like this, and I hope the enthusiasm and passion he's inspired carries over to getting some really good policy and legislation passed, be it on a local, state, or federal level.

But he didn't win the nomination. Hilary did. And I'm going to support her. That doesn't mean I automatically agree with every single thing she's said or done, that doesn't mean I think she's the best Democratic candidate we've ever had, that doesn't mean I can't understand why some people are wary of her.

But I'm sure as hell NOT voting for Trump, not voting at all is not an option to me, and I don't want to write in a third-party candidate. And I believe she's got the experience and knowledge necessary to do the job, and won't drive our country into the ground. I don't care if she's "unlikable", I don't care if she's a "bitch", I don't care if she's had her awkward public moments, etc., etc. I just want her to do her job and try and fight on behalf of the issues I care about, and so long as she can do that, we're good.
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