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Old 05-24-2016, 12:05 AM   #166
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread IX

Why is Hillary so soundly beating Sanders if there are all these millions and millions of people who have never voted before but are now voting for him? Shouldn't he be doing better? Why isn't he winning the primary -- especially a Dem primary with a much more liberal electorate -- if he beats Trump by so much? You've walked away from your earlier assertions about how he does better in open primaries (he doesn't). What about these assertions you're making? Where are the numbers? Why can't he come as close to her as she did to Obama in 08? Isn't the only real question why isn't she beating him by even more?
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:17 AM   #167
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Why is Hillary so soundly beating Sanders if there are all these millions and millions of people who have never voted before but are now voting for him? Shouldn't he be doing better? Why isn't he winning the primary -- especially a Dem primary with a much more liberal electorate -- if he beats Trump by so much? You've walked away from your earlier assertions about how he does better in open primaries (he doesn't). What about these assertions you're making? Where are the numbers? Why can't he come as close to her as she did to Obama in 08? Isn't the only real question why isn't she beating him by even more?

I'm not sure what's so hard to figure out about the math. But I'll illustrate it for you.

Let's say Clinton gets 70% of Democrats and basically nobody else.

Let's say Sanders gets 30% of Democrats and the rest of his votes come from these millions of independent voters.

Clinton absolutely slays Sanders with lifelong Democrats and it's enough to win the primary. But who actually brought new voters into the fold? Sanders.

General election comes around and basically every Democrat that planned on voting in November no matter what goes and votes for Sanders and he also gets those extra non-Democrats.

I really don't see what you're not getting. Likewise, John Kasich and Marco Rubio, for example, fared far better than Trump in these polls because they would do better with the sliver of non-Republicans than Trump would (along with Trump actually losing lifelong Republican votes). Trump won the primary, but he's the weaker candidate.


To illustrate this again, let's say we're going to have a game against each other where we see who can make a bigger baseball team. You manage to assemble 13 of our usual players out of 20 and I get the other 7. I also manage to bring in 3 people that have never played baseball before. At the end of the day, you still have 13 potential players and I have 10. You have me beat in terms of recruiting players.

Then we try to beat the guy across town at this game. He brings his 20, but we, together, now have 23 because those 3 newbies decided to stick with me. We win. Get it now?

If you just go with the mathematically wrong logic of "primary winner equals best general election candidate" than it would entail that someone that earned a whopping 1,000 more votes in a primary that 20,000,000 voted in would automatically be the better of the two candidates with the general population. At the same time, the loser could have a more substantial percentage of their supporters coming from independents outside the party that won't vote for the person who won the primary and who has been associated with that same party for their entire political life. I certainly know which one I would prefer to have as the nominee.

Likewise, that hypothetical primary winner could be hated by everyone who didn't vote for them in the primary. That would be a very shitty candidate indeed, but by the logic of a lot of people in here, they would be the best simply because they won their party's primary even if the other roughly 3/4 of the nation thinks they are garbage.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:27 AM   #168
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread IX

No. It doesn't make any sense. If Sanders were the revolutionary figure you claim he is, the one bringing millions of new voters into the process, HE'D BE TRUMP. He isn't. And as you say, Trump is the weakest general candidate of the bunch.

You are vastly overestimating Bernie's appeal based on really fuzzy logic and assumptions. Most Sanders voters are going to vote for Clinton. There simply aren't these "millions and millions" of non-political people out there. The Clinton campaign is not worried about winning enough of the Bernie vote. They will get enough of it. What they want to focus on is peeling off right leaning white women in the suburbs.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:30 AM   #169
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No, you're just making assertions without any real logic. Sanders isn't a big revolutionary figure because he failed to win his own primary. Absolutely. That doesn't mean he is the weaker general election candidate.

I don't get why you are pointing it out as black-and-white where Sanders has to bring in enough independents to win the primary for it to mean that he actually brought people into the primary. That makes zero sense.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:31 AM   #170
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You are vastly overestimating Bernie's appeal based on really fuzzy logic and assumptions.
Or the mountain of general election and favorability polling compared to the fuzzy logic and assumptions made by everyone else in here. Some evidence is better than no evidence.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:31 AM   #171
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No, you're just making assertions without any real logic. Sanders isn't a big revolutionary figure because he failed to win his own primary. Absolutely. That doesn't mean he is the weaker general election candidate.

I don't get why you are pointing it out as black-and-white where Sanders has to bring in enough independents to win the primary for it to mean that he actually brought people into the primary. That makes zero sense.


You don't have any math. You have no numbers to back up your claims.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:35 AM   #172
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread IX

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Originally Posted by BigMacPhisto View Post
No, you're just making assertions without any real logic. Sanders isn't a big revolutionary figure because he failed to win his own primary. Absolutely. That doesn't mean he is the weaker general election candidate.

I don't get why you are pointing it out as black-and-white where Sanders has to bring in enough independents to win the primary for it to mean that he actually brought people into the primary. That makes zero sense.


If you support Sanders because of his platform and ideas, that's great.

The argument that he is more likely to win the general isn't a great argument. Not least because you're unable to make it beyond citing polls done in May that everyone agrees are worthless. Not had he brought these "millions and millions" of voters out to the polls. Turnout is down. He isn't winning open primaries. His rallies are smaller than Obama's. He's transformative when you want him to be?

When asked why minorities don't like Bernie, your response is that the aren't sophisticated enough to see beyond name recognition.

Isn't that what's happening in these early polls? Name recognition?
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:43 AM   #173
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You don't have any math. You have no numbers to back up your claims.
Except the exit polling showing how huge chunks of independents voted for Sanders in states like Michigan, propelling him to victory in states where he got clobbered by Clinton with registered Democrats. And the general election polling now.

You have nothing. Just your own opinion reiterated over and over like it's fact.


There's literally millions of non-Democrats that have voted for Sanders in the primaries and nobody else in this thread but you is arguing against that. And they're exactly the sort of votes that aren't in-the-bag for the fall and why Clinton is so keen to win them over. Do you really think she would be agreeing to make concessions when neither of the major parties has really done so unless it's actually a contested convention? She wants to woo them over because they aren't guaranteed votes. In the past, neither of the major parties really let the losing candidates have a say at the convention - no matter how many delegates they happened to receive. This situation is different precisely because there's millions of voters in the balance that aren't ones you can just ignore because they're going to coalesce behind the nominee regardless. Had Sanders been the nominee, the Democrats get their first Presidential vote from me and a happy "why not?" when I'd check the rest of the down ballot boxes next to the D. There's millions like me that Clinton wants to woo over. Not that she can do it with everybody, mind you.

It's really not lifelong Democrats saying "Sanders or bust" as it's the people that aren't members of the party (or are newly registered) which happens to be a considerable amount of Sanders supporters. The actual Democrats will have no problem checking off any Democrat's name in November.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:54 AM   #174
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Not had he brought these "millions and millions" of voters out to the polls. Turnout is down. He isn't winning open primaries. His rallies are smaller than Obama's. He's transformative when you want him to be?

When asked why minorities don't like Bernie, your response is that the aren't sophisticated enough to see beyond name recognition.

Isn't that what's happening in these early polls? Name recognition?
This is just entirely nonsense and you really don't understand math. Turnout can be down with tons of new voters entering the fold just as they have for Sanders.

Let's say 20,000,000 voted for Clinton vs. Obama. Let's say only 10,000,000 of them vote in Clinton vs. Sanders. But Sanders also brings in 4,000,000 new voters.

Clinton gets 8,000,000 of the people that voted in the previous election while Sanders gets 2,000,000 plus his new 4,000,000. Sanders loses by 2,000,000 votes. Not surpassing record turnout in Obama vs. Clinton doesn't mean a certain candidate isn't drawing in new voters, especially when that candidate is drawing in independents and is an independent himself. Seriously, you would fail any critical thinking class with your grasp on logic and math.



Secondly, you're just saying nonsense about minorities not liking Sanders. He has the higher approval rating within the party, even. Just because someone votes for Clinton it doesn't mean they dislike Sanders and vice-versa. That's beyond the fact that you're statement is blunt in itself.

And your business about name recognition makes zero sense. So you're saying Bernie is doing better because he's recognized more in polls by people than Clinton? I'm sure that has never, ever happened. He technically would start any general election poll at a disadvantage to where Clinton starts because he's less of a known quantity (although at this point, practically everyone but the lowest information voters know who he is and what he stands for). My point is that plenty of voters cast ballots by mail in states before they even knew who Sanders was and the remark of "I don't know him" is even hilariously repeated in quite a few articles concerning black voters in South Carolina despite the fact that Sanders had been campaigning and debating there for weeks, even. Plenty of states had hundreds of thousands of ballots come in before Sanders ever even stepped a foot in them or aired a single advertisement (not to mention the over a dozen states where his campaign did nothing, most of them in the South).

And it's not about sophistication or anything when it comes to black voters. Clinton embodies the third term for Obama as she's his choice and served in his administration. They adore Obama and want to continue his legacy. Case in point, when Biden was entered into polls, the black voted actually shifted quite a bit as it leads to confusion over just which candidate carries that mantle.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:56 AM   #175
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Using Michigan as your only example -- a state arguably hurt most by NAFTA, and where Bernie has his strongest support with white voters left behind by free trade -- is a bad way to judge the general. You also have no evidence that these people:

1. Had never voted before
2. Won't vote for Clinton in the general (they will, mostly)
3. Won't vote for Trump in the general (they could)
4. Weren't Republicans
5. Were more than Democrats voting in the GOP race to stop Trump

Furthermore, he has not repeated this in other states.

He also won by a small margin -- 1.5% -- in a state that goes blue.

If you're Bernie outlook is based on Michigan, I can see how you'd have this misunderstanding of the general.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:02 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by BigMacPhisto View Post
Except the exit polling showing how huge chunks of independents voted for Sanders in states like Michigan, propelling him to victory in states where he got clobbered by Clinton with registered Democrats. And the general election polling now.

You have nothing. Just your own opinion reiterated over and over like it's fact.


There's literally millions of non-Democrats that have voted for Sanders in the primaries and nobody else in this thread but you is arguing against that. And they're exactly the sort of votes that aren't in-the-bag for the fall and why Clinton is so keen to win them over. Do you really think she would be agreeing to make concessions when neither of the major parties has really done so unless it's actually a contested convention? She wants to woo them over because they aren't guaranteed votes. In the past, neither of the major parties really let the losing candidates have a say at the convention - no matter how many delegates they happened to receive. This situation is different precisely because there's millions of voters in the balance that aren't ones you can just ignore because they're going to coalesce behind the nominee regardless. Had Sanders been the nominee, the Democrats get their first Presidential vote from me and a happy "why not?" when I'd check the rest of the down ballot boxes next to the D. There's millions like me that Clinton wants to woo over. Not that she can do it with everybody, mind you.

It's really not lifelong Democrats saying "Sanders or bust" as it's the people that aren't members of the party (or are newly registered) which happens to be a considerable amount of Sanders supporters. The actual Democrats will have no problem checking off any Democrat's name in November.



I'm on a phone and it's impossible for me at this hour to respond point by point, but a lot of this is nonsense.

The "Bernie or Bust" folk are a tiny percentage of the electorate. Tiny. Most Sanders voters will vote for Clinton. I understand at tempting to think of ourselves as more representative than we actually are of an electorate, but there you have it. There aren't these "millions and millions" of voters out there like you claim. You still have no evidence.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:08 AM   #177
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread IX

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Originally Posted by BigMacPhisto View Post
This is just entirely nonsense and you really don't understand math. Turnout can be down with tons of new voters entering the fold just as they have for Sanders.

Let's say 20,000,000 voted for Clinton vs. Obama. Let's say only 10,000,000 of them vote in Clinton vs. Sanders. But Sanders also brings in 4,000,000 new voters.

Clinton gets 8,000,000 of the people that voted in the previous election while Sanders gets 2,000,000 plus his new 4,000,000. Sanders loses by 2,000,000 votes. Not surpassing record turnout in Obama vs. Clinton doesn't mean a certain candidate isn't drawing in new voters, especially when that candidate is drawing in independents and is an independent himself. Seriously, you would fail any critical thinking class with your grasp on logic and math.



Secondly, you're just saying nonsense about minorities not liking Sanders. He has the higher approval rating within the party, even. Just because someone votes for Clinton it doesn't mean they dislike Sanders and vice-versa. That's beyond the fact that you're statement is blunt in itself.

And your business about name recognition makes zero sense. So you're saying Bernie is doing better because he's recognized more in polls by people than Clinton? I'm sure that has never, ever happened. He technically would start any general election poll at a disadvantage to where Clinton starts because he's less of a known quantity (although at this point, practically everyone but the lowest information voters know who he is and what he stands for). My point is that plenty of voters cast ballots by mail in states before they even knew who Sanders was and the remark of "I don't know him" is even hilariously repeated in quite a few articles concerning black voters in South Carolina despite the fact that Sanders had been campaigning and debating there for weeks, even. Plenty of states had hundreds of thousands of ballots come in before Sanders ever even stepped a foot in them or aired a single advertisement (not to mention the over a dozen states where his campaign did nothing, most of them in the South).

And it's not about sophistication or anything when it comes to black voters. Clinton embodies the third term for Obama as she's his choice and served in his administration. They adore Obama and want to continue his legacy. Case in point, when Biden was entered into polls, the black voted actually shifted quite a bit as it leads to confusion over just which candidate carries that mantle.



1. Again, you have no math. You have weird hypotheticals. Show me the new voters. I can show you the numbers that say that 86% of Bernie voters will support HRC in the general. 10% will go for Trump. I guess you're in that remaining "Bernienor Bust" 4%?

2. You are the one who argued name recognition for why Hillary does better among minority voters. That same high name recognition works *against* her in the general whereas Sanders, at the moment, may sound fresh and new.

From the NYT today:

Quote:
One is that Bernie Sanders’s supporters are a big reason Clinton is doing worse in her polling against Trump. In the recent YouGov poll, Clinton had just a 40-point lead against Trump among Sanders voters, while Sanders had a 70-point lead. Trump was getting virtually the same share of the vote against both candidates — 40 percent against Clinton, 39 percent against Sanders. Presumably most Sanders supporters will ultimately get behind Clinton, and, on the flip side, Clinton supporters would have been much more negative on Sanders if he had posed a more serious threat to her victory.

The second thing is that Sanders just hasn’t faced any major attacks on his record. The Republicans have cheered him on against Clinton, whom they realize they’re inevitably going to face. Clinton never really attacked him, either — no big negative television ad buys, for example — in no small part because she didn’t want to alienate his supporters.

So Sanders is set to lose, but in a way that leaves him unscathed and therefore appearing very strong in the general. There was something similar with John Kasich. Maybe Sanders really would have survived all of the attacks from Clinton that would have come if he had been a bigger threat to win the nomination. But as it is, it’s just a question mark.

You can choose not to believe this anti-Bernie rag, but there you have it.
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Old 05-24-2016, 06:57 AM   #178
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1. Again, you have no math. You have weird hypotheticals. Show me the new voters. I can show you the numbers that say that 86% of Bernie voters will support HRC in the general. 10% will go for Trump. I guess you're in that remaining "Bernienor Bust" 4%?

2. You are the one who argued name recognition for why Hillary does better among minority voters. That same high name recognition works *against* her in the general whereas Sanders, at the moment, may sound fresh and new.

From the NYT today:




You can choose not to believe this anti-Bernie rag, but there you have it.
You just don't understand math.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:53 AM   #179
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If there are so many independents just jonesing to Feel The Bern, how has Hillary won more open primaries?

Logic would tell you that if there are so many independent BernieBros just comping at the bit to cast their vote that he'd dominate any open primary.

I guess I just don't understand math.
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Old 05-24-2016, 08:12 AM   #180
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Trump is talking about Vince Foster and murder.

That sounds like the shakeup of the system the Trumpsters say they want!
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