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Old 02-08-2016, 01:06 AM   #946
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Vlad is a mystery to me. Vague comments and little follow up.

If my understanding is correct, Vlad is a full Marxist (I believe he's said as much in the past - not trying to use it as a stupid pejorative). I would love to hear more from him on it. I tend to really respect and appreciate listening to the Marxists I know IRL.


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Old 02-08-2016, 01:08 AM   #947
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What are you talking about? The first two are clearly social democracies.

I know you're pedantic about what qualifies as socialism or communism, but really now Vlad.
That's what I meant, social democracies, but even then in recent decades the Scandinavian states were not as they once were.

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I think his beef was that Irvine didn't call them social democracies, he described them as socialist states of some description. And yeah, bit of a difference.
Pretty much exactly what I was getting at. There's a fairly noticeable difference, yeah.

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Hence, pedantic.

Sorry if I mixed around socialist democracies with democratic socialism.

The main point, that I'll reiterate, is that "socialism" doesn't have a knee-jerk reaction for the young as IH seemed to imply that it does amongst the olds.

Vlad is a mystery to me. Vague comments and little follow up.
I don't think it's necessarily that pedantic, and I can still understand your confusion to a point, but this is really one of those things where one word/term can make a significant difference.

I agree that the term does not carry as much fear anymore.

I'm not really that mysterious either, it's not particularly easy to get into the US political discussions on this board at that times, which is why it may seem that I'm drifting in-and-out with regularity.

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"Socialist democratic countries" clearly meant "social democratic countries" though, so Vlad's reply still seems like a bit of a leap. Unless he really does think no government is ideologically pure enough for him.
I'm not sure why you're pushing this! This has nothing to do with that I consider ideologically pure or not.

Anyway, apologies to Irvine for my pedantry - all I wanted to suggest in the end is that the change of one word

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I've always felt that Vlad's idea of a good government has never and will never exist.
You've said this on multiple occasions but I'm not sure if you remember when I have discussed this.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:12 AM   #948
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Originally Posted by digitize View Post
If my understanding is correct, Vlad is a full Marxist (I believe he's said as much in the past - not trying to use it as a stupid pejorative). I would love to hear more from him on it. I tend to really respect and appreciate listening to the Marxists I know IRL.


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I'm not sure if I've ever properly stated my tendency in the past, I don't try to pigeon hole myself into a particular tendency (of which there are numerous).

I wouldn't mind seeing what a half Marxist would entail though.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:18 AM   #949
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I wouldn't mind seeing what a half Marxist would entail though.

Fair enough.


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Old 02-08-2016, 01:21 AM   #950
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I'm not sure why you're pushing this! This has nothing to do with that I consider ideologically pure or not.
It does seem to me that you place a high premium on a certain kind of ideological purity though. It's hard for somebody to be described as a socialist or communist without you jumping in to suggest that they aren't - or in general to deride the progressive or left-wing credentials of somebody (often on the basis of specific grievances rather than a general critique, the whole "no true Scotsman would do X" fallacy).

I think sometimes you're doing a service. There is a tendency - and, without trying to generalise too much, a tendency especially from right-wing Americans - to describe as socialists or communists individuals who clearly are not. It's good to have an antidote to that. But it's possible to take that too far, and I thought taking on Irvine's post is a case in point. You're both making the same point, broadly speaking, to IH!
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:23 AM   #951
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I'm not sure if I've ever properly stated my tendency in the past, I don't try to pigeon hole myself into a particular tendency (of which there are numerous).
Any sensible Marxist is a Trot just so they can get the best fashion.

(I've probably mentioned in the past studying undergrad with a guy who actually dressed like Trotsky every day.)
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:38 AM   #952
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oh wow this thread is becoming more about arguments about socialism time has changed.
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:39 AM   #953
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It does seem to me that you place a high premium on a certain kind of ideological purity though. It's hard for somebody to be described as a socialist or communist without you jumping in to suggest that they aren't - or in general to deride the progressive or left-wing credentials of somebody (often on the basis of specific grievances rather than a general critique, the whole "no true Scotsman would do X" fallacy).

I think sometimes you're doing a service. There is a tendency - and, without trying to generalise too much, a tendency especially from right-wing Americans - to describe as socialists or communists individuals who clearly are not. It's good to have an antidote to that. But it's possible to take that too far, and I thought taking on Irvine's post is a case in point. You're both making the same point, broadly speaking, to IH!
I understand your point of view, though even then I'm comparatively mild and accepting on this point compared to others I know. I feel more positively than negatively towards a Jeremy Corbyn, for example, and for all of my many criticisms of Bernie Sanders I think that his presence is a promising one for the US.

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Any sensible Marxist is a Trot just so they can get the best fashion.

(I've probably mentioned in the past studying undergrad with a guy who actually dressed like Trotsky every day.)
Did he carry around newspapers often/try to sell them to you?
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:41 AM   #954
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oh wow this thread is becoming more about arguments about socialism time has changed.
Three cheers for iron horse!
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Old 02-08-2016, 02:06 AM   #955
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I'd rather Vlad contributed a bit more, for all his human failings, compared to some of the dreck in these threads.
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Old 02-08-2016, 03:09 AM   #956
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am I included in those drecks?
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Old 02-08-2016, 04:39 AM   #957
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No, you aren't.
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Old 02-08-2016, 08:54 AM   #958
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I'd rather Vlad contributed a bit more, for all his human failings, compared to some of the dreck in these threads.

I agree.
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Old 02-08-2016, 04:33 PM   #959
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if we are evaluating contributors and participants to this FYM forum I would hardly put Vlad on a list that includes the term "human failings".
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Old 02-08-2016, 05:18 PM   #960
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Enjoying this 'poster evaluation' discourse.
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