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Old 02-05-2016, 02:44 PM   #856
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Yes. Hilary Clinton most likely had Botox. And Donald Trump likely sits in a tanning bed. And until last year, everyone thought it was a toupee. Yeah, definitely don't see why the Botox thing is sexist. A politician's image gets mocked regardless. Look at Ted Cruz's nose. Should I only pick on men? That's exactly the sexist problem. Can a man not have Botox? They can and they do.

yes, i agree that men's appearances come under scrutiny. but it's seen as a personality quirk rather than a character flaw. that's the sexist problem.





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No, you don't. This is *exactly* what I'm talking about. The loudest mouth is not automatically the most important.

you'll have to explain further because i don't understand what you're saying here.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:46 PM   #857
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I really fail to see how a charge of inauthenticity is inherently sexist.

I think Rubio is even more inauthentic - he's basically a puppet with a cabal of billionaires up his ass telling him what to say.

Hillary's issue is that while both Clintons may be inauthentic, Bill is likeable. And no, it's not sexist to say so, either. He is just much more of a gregarious people-person and so even when he's shoveling the shit out of his mouth, he's managing to charm you. There are plenty of women out there like that, but Hillary ain't one.

Now I think when you get to people talking about her being overly ambitious, to me that does actually sound like a dog whistle.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:49 PM   #858
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2016 US Presidential Election Pt. IV

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I think this is why people are commenting on the gender issue with your statements about Hilary. Criticizing her policies is totally fine, nobody here's disagreeing with that.

But these comments about her having Botox or being a "cutesy old lady" or whatever don't really have any relevance to her policies, so there's really no reason to throw it into your analysis of her as a politician.
We were not talking about her policies, directly. We were talking about her lack of genuine behavior and delivery.

And Jesus Christ... she fucking launched her campaign with a huge emphasis on the fact that she's a grandmother to illustrate her experience and repair her family values reputation. She ACTUALLY put on the grandmother act. That's not SEXIST. It's what she DID. My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.

Edit: sorry for the flagrant tone, long day...
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:50 PM   #859
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you'll have to explain further because i don't understand what you're saying here.
From what I gather, he's basically saying that he feels you are speaking like you have a viewpoint for all gay people and one he doesn't share. That being outspoken on an issue doesn't mean your viewpoint is more valid or something to that effect.

LN7, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:51 PM   #860
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Yes. Hilary Clinton most likely had Botox. And Donald Trump likely sits in a tanning bed. And until last year, everyone thought it was a toupee. Yeah, definitely don't see why the Botox thing is sexist. A politician's image gets mocked regardless. Look at Ted Cruz's nose. Should I only pick on men? That's exactly the sexist problem. Can a man not have Botox? They can and they do.
Yes, male politicians' looks have been mocked and criticized, but the media still also talks seriously about their policies, and treats them like actual politicians.

With women, their looks tend to be the main, if not the only, depending on some circles, thing the media focuses on. And with Obama, his race is a big issue with some people. It's gender/race/looks first, politician second with Hilary and Obama. White male politicians have the reverse.

Having said that, though, if people are having a lighthearted conversation where jokes are flying about all politicians' looks, that's one thing. But when it comes to serious discussion of any politician, be they male or female, black or white, etc., it seems pointless to make mention of any of their looks, period. At this point I don't care about Trump's hair or Clinton's Botox or whatever. I care about their politics.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:54 PM   #861
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Yes, male politicians' looks have been mocked and criticized, but the media still also talks seriously about their policies, and treats them like actual politicians.
One exception I can think of in this election cycle is Chris Christie - people have actually openly discussed whether he is too fat to be president. And he is regularly called Crisco, Crispy or whatever on Twitter and other places.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:58 PM   #862
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My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.

Um, no it's not. A better analogy would be if you said Obama was using his being black to appeal to _______.




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Old 02-05-2016, 02:58 PM   #863
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We were not talking about her policies, directly. We were talking about her lack of genuine behavior and delivery.

And Jesus Christ... she fucking launched her campaign with a huge emphasis on the fact that she's a grandmother to illustrate her experience and repair her family values reputation. She ACTUALLY put on the grandmother act. That's not SEXIST. It's what she DID. My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.

well, she has to in order to humanize her. after all, ambitious women are inauthentic and full of Botox. what is she if she can't remind us that she has/had a functioning vagina and a maternal instinct? after all, conservative female politicians respond to every question with, "Tim, as a mother, I would want anyone who harmed a child to be given the death penalty."

i do know what you're getting at, though.

if you dig back to 2008, i remember being really irritated when she sniffled a little bit at a NH town meeting or whatever after she came in 3rd in Iowa. she also talked about the tough times on the campaign trail and how it's easy to gain weight "when all there is to eat is pizza." i remember rolling my eyes like Liz Lemon and being all like, "Jesus, lady, could you work that frumpy menopausal lady thing any harder?"

and it was wise old Yolland who basically said, "well, what else would she do? she's a politician. she has to work every advantage she can." it's no different than Rubio talking about his father owning a bar on the beach or Clinton being the boy from Hope. they work whatever they have that will make their life story seem compelling to the uninformed. we only notice it more with women because it's new. Romney trotted out his moderately hot sons and all their children whenever he could -- but does that arise the same amount of ire?

at the end of the day, i can't argue that Hillary may come across as inauthentic. i can't tell you what you're thinking. but i do think that some charges of inauthenticity are rooted in gender because a woman has no other choice but to play the political game if she is to have any prayer at elected office at all.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:59 PM   #864
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We were not talking about her policies, directly. We were talking about her lack of genuine behavior and delivery.

And Jesus Christ... she fucking launched her campaign with a huge emphasis on the fact that she's a grandmother to illustrate her experience and repair her family values reputation. She ACTUALLY put on the grandmother act. That's not SEXIST. It's what she DID. My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.
I think the problem i see here is that you call it a "grandmother act"!? She's a grandmother. I'm sure a proud one, and like having a child can change your life's perspective, I would imagine having a grandchild could be nearly as immense.

I know she's serious, no-nonsense, and doesn't have the charm of Bill (nor do many others) but it seems that you may be laying everything on her personality, instead of her obvious experience, unmatched knowledge, solid detailed plans and proven determination over decades.

I think there is something deep down in people that just wants or expects a woman to be more emotional or passive or something that evokes a negative feeling. I am not saying this because it HRC. I loathe Carly Fiorina and would say she faces similar obstacles.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:01 PM   #865
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One exception I can think of in this election cycle is Chris Christie - people have actually openly discussed whether he is too fat to be president. And he is regularly called Crisco, Crispy or whatever on Twitter and other places.
What you said is true. What is also absolutely true, is that NO woman, if she was his weight, would have ever, ever been elected as Governor. I promise you.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:03 PM   #866
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One exception I can think of in this election cycle is Chris Christie - people have actually openly discussed whether he is too fat to be president. And he is regularly called Crisco, Crispy or whatever on Twitter and other places.
And let's be honest, looks have been an important part of electing a president since television, going back to the Nixon/Kennedy debates.

Ross Perot's huge ears were roundly mocked in 92.

Dukakis was known as the midget from Massachusetts.

A woman being a serious contender for the office is new territory, but judging candidates by their looks is not. Sad as it may be, for a lot of the population its more like voting for prom king or queen than for someone's policies and abilities to lead.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:04 PM   #867
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2016 US Presidential Election Pt. IV

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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
yes, i agree that men's appearances come under scrutiny. but it's seen as a personality quirk rather than a character flaw. that's the sexist problem.
Well, in the case of Botox the analogy just so happened to fit with a character flaw. Botox = cosmetic poker face. Hides emotions. Hence "seeing right through it."



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you'll have to explain further because i don't understand what you're saying here.

You assume you're the only gay person around here and therefore you have the Interference say-all on all things gay.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:08 PM   #868
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I think the problem i see here is that you call it a "grandmother act"!? She's a grandmother. I'm sure a proud one, and like having a child can change your life's perspective, I would imagine having a grandchild could be nearly as immense.

Im sure she is. My point was that my utilization of "Mom" from Futurama was a character representation of someone who uses a gimmick that isn't typical of her personality in order to appeal to emotion.

But the reference wasn't used simply because she's simply an old lady. It was used because it's what she *actually* did. It was her campaign, not her as an individual.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:09 PM   #869
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And Jesus Christ... she fucking launched her campaign with a huge emphasis on the fact that she's a grandmother to illustrate her experience and repair her family values reputation. She ACTUALLY put on the grandmother act. That's not SEXIST. It's what she DID. My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.
She may well have been playing that up in her campaign, but I don't get where that's necessarily something to criticize or mock her for.

I'm just saying that the whole thing about her possibly having had Botox or commenting on her grandmotherly demeanor doesn't seem very relevant to the discussion about her record on various issues or whether or not she's genuine when speaking to people or whatever. Just like I don't really get why anyone would bring up the fact that Trump wears a toupee in a serious discussion about his political history.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:09 PM   #870
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You assume you're the only gay person around here and therefore you have the Interference say-all on all things gay.

i don't ascribe myself that much power. i certainly speak up, and will offer my opinion -- as i do on a wide, wide variety of topics -- and do experience the world as a gay male and no one has the right to tell me how i should or should not experience my gayness or present it.

i guess i'd like to think that if i come off as an authority it's because of the strength of my arguments, and not my sexual orientation. but i guess you see it differently?

i also can't think of another openly gay active poster in here. Melon hasn't been here in years.
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