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Old 02-03-2016, 03:04 AM   #736
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Clinton doesn't strike me as the greatest candidate ever.
But, then again, to me it seemed that Obama was exactly what the US needed and his presidencies basically amounted to very little (in due time Obamacare will be considered a blessing though) because of an inability between Democrats and Republicans to work together.

I always sort of feared where the US would go after Obama. If you can even make a huge stinking mess of things when having the right person in place, then where do you go after that? (Certainly not Sanders IMO, unless you haven't paid much attention why Obama has been largely ineffective). It is a breading ground for whackjobs like Trump and Cruz.
Clinton (if through name alone) at least offers some idea of political stability.

Still seems like the least bad person for the job.
And I still think she will easily win it.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:34 AM   #737
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Clinton doesn't strike me as the greatest candidate ever.
But, then again, to me it seemed that Obama was exactly what the US needed and his presidencies basically amounted to very little (in due time Obamacare will be considered a blessing though) because of an inability between Democrats and Republicans to work together.

I always sort of feared where the US would go after Obama. If you can even make a huge stinking mess of things when having the right person in place, then where do you go after that? (Certainly not Sanders IMO, unless you haven't paid much attention why Obama has been largely ineffective). It is a breading ground for whackjobs like Trump and Cruz.
Clinton (if through name alone) at least offers some idea of political stability.

Still seems like the least bad person for the job.
And I still think she will easily win it.



It amazes me when people say Obama has been ineffective. If you listen to his opposition, he's gotten everything he's ever wanted and the GOP rolls over and plays dead. Where do you think "take our country back" comes from?

It also amazes me when people express disappointment that he didn't turn the US into Iceland. As if a continent of 320m people could ever accept anything other than incremental change. This is not a revolutionary population, moderates tend to win the presidency, and it's critical in keeping the country seen together. We are not France, now on its 5th republic.

The moderates tend to win the presidency, and for good reason.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:38 AM   #738
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I also have to say I'd take my chances with Trump over Cruz and Rubio. Cruz is a hateful true believer, nobody likes him, he is running his entire campaign on the premise that nobody wants to work with him - can't have that kind of person in office. This is to say nothing of his stone age ideas regarding women and carpet bombing civilians. Rubio really is W light, I think he is entitled and lazy (in terms of his political life, he does at least seem to have worked hard prior to being the annointed one) and I think would be controlled by Dick Cheney types should he make it.

Trump has an elephantine ego and is a person I would not want to spend a minute with. BUT I think he is largely a performer and somebody who would do whatever it takes to close the deal. The idiocies he is saying on the campaign, I'd venture a guess he half-believes some of them and the others, like parading around a bible in an ad, are totally made up positions by his marketing people. He has really figured out what a portion of the electorate wants to hear and is giving it to them. But does anybody actually believe that a man with 3 wives, 5 children that we know of, heaven knows how many affairs, etc is really going to be anti-choice? Do you really think somebody obsessed with $ actually cares about gay marriage or what some whackadoodle in flyover country thinks are his god given rights to sell guns in the parking lot of a daycare? I honestly see him having a pretty ineffective one term, maybe it's way worse than that and I'm wrong, but that's a 50/50 chance. With Cruz, you know exactly what you're getting and it's horrific.

The problem the Democrats have is that the Clintons have always been extreme opportunists, but at least Bill is likeable. The only hope here was that Hillary walked away after 2008 and thought about retirement, spending some time with the grandkids and what have you. But she is not that type of woman, it is as if she has lived for this moment her entire life, she feels like it is her turn and there is literally nothing she will do to give that up. My prediction is still she grinds her way to electoral victory, I think she will do very well in places like OH, PA, and very well with older women who vote in droves. But she won't take this in a landslide, unless we are "blessed" with Cruz.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:40 AM   #739
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It amazes me when people say Obama has been ineffective. If you listen to his opposition, he's gotten everything he's ever wanted and the GOP rolls over and plays dead. Where do you think "take our country back" comes from?
You can forgive people for being confused if they are listening to his opposition. Because to them, Obama is a fascist dictator who has gotten his way on every issue AND at the same time an effete, ineffectual pussy.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:47 AM   #740
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It amazes me when people say Obama has been ineffective. If you listen to his opposition, he's gotten everything he's ever wanted and the GOP rolls over and plays dead. Where do you think "take our country back" comes from?

It also amazes me when people express disappointment that he didn't turn the US into Iceland. As if a continent of 320m people could ever accept anything other than incremental change. This is not a revolutionary population, moderates tend to win the presidency, and it's critical in keeping the country seen together. We are not France, now on its 5th republic.

The moderates tend to win the presidency, and for good reason.
Granted, my opinion is based on whatever news reaches Europe.
Which has mostly been government shutdown, still no increased gun laws and Obamacare.
From here it all seems like a missed opportunity.

I don't even want The Netherlands to resemble Iceland.
Let alone I would advise the US to go down that route.
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:31 AM   #741
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I understand. I've spent a good amount of time in Europe and understand how curious the US can look from the outside, and how it can be difficult to grasp the enormity of the geography and populace, as well as the complexity of domestic issues and understated but very real regional differences.

We, including the American left, often operate under the assumption that what will work in small, comparatively homogenous European countries will magically translate to the US. It won't. That's why I thought that Obamacare was, generally, an important step towards universal coverage, for example. There are myriad small legislative achievements too long to list here, and possibly disputable. The contention isn't whether or not Obama has been good but if he's been effective or, as the chattering class would say, "consequential." He has. We've had small, incremental change we can believe in. That's how the country is designed, with all its checks and balances, to resist big change. People from Kansas inhabit the same country as the DC-NYC cognoscenti, and their beliefs and values have to be taken into account, and their votes matter as well. The US is more like the EU.

I agree about guns. I think Obama would too. It's unbearably depressing.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:16 AM   #742
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ultimately, i think the argument i'm making is for a presidential candidate -- legislators are different -- to occupy the edge of the center. for the Dems, it's going to be a center-left candidate, for the GOP, it's going to be a center-right. don't forget, in 2000 W campaigned as a "compassionate conservative" uninterested in wars and nation building and touting things like working with Democrats in Texas and education policy. after 9/11 is when Darth Sidious Dick Cheney took over internally and gave a shell-shocked public a much, much more conservative administration than was intended.

further, divided government tends to be pretty good government. we could argue that the US was governed pretty well from 1981-2001 by a President and Congress from opposing parties. this isn't to say that all legislation was "good" or not, but it is to say that it was never too radical or reactionary and the business of government functioned pretty well, even after the 1994 mid-terms or the 1998 blow job scandals.

i think we need our revolutionaries, but i think they come from the legislative branch. a president needs to represent the largest number of people. to me, that's an important piece of leadership. she does not 100% represent me, but that's ok -- i prefer the good to the perfect. i want an executive to represent a broad coalition and also be willing to push a few key issues in my direction so that said coalition will follow. i would point to Obama's cautious, incremental, but ultimately transformational work on LGBT issues as a great example. yes, it took him a long time to fully endorse SSM (and at Biden's prompting). but he did important work by even saying the word "gay" in his 2004 speech at the Convention. he appointed good judges, he worked hard to repeal DADT which was a great example of work with Leiberman. and now look where we are. enormous, exciting progress that may have seemed grinding at the time but the change itself is real and lasting.

in summary, i'm still voting for Hillary.
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:37 PM   #743
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Frightening? I think people getting in a room together and talking face to face before they vote is a very positive thing in 2016. I'd be far more frightened if this all took place on people's I-phones without them ever leaving their basement or bedroom.
The democrats vote by standing in a large space, grouping together, and counting heads.

The Republicans put folded pieces of paper in a bucket, which are then out into smaller Buckets by some random dude who, at least the one I was watching, drops every 4th vote on the floor.

It's 2016. I'm not saying we should all be voting on our smart phones but perhaps Iowa can update their process to something that was developed in the last hundred years.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:10 PM   #744
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2016 US Presidential Election Pt. IV

I used to like Ted Cruz, but he's downright slimey and is a big dork unleashed on a power trip right now.

It's fun to watch him and Donald spar like it's High School all over again.

Ted Cruz just said 'We're likely to wake up one morning and find out Donald Trump nuked Denmark'


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Old 02-03-2016, 04:24 PM   #745
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Trump wants Iowa to vote again or Cruz's result nullified because, he alleges, of voter fraud.

That's one very healthy crop of sour grapes.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:48 PM   #746
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Trump is a sociopathic, narcissistic, dangerous, perverted moron. I wouldn't be surprised if he loses New Hampshire, too.
He's using this whole Cruz/Carson thing to make the claim that he was being treated unfairly. Then he'll go third party. The whole fiasco was 100% on the Carson campaign anyway. Saying he's gonna go home to FL to get a change of clothes? Wtf? Are you serious?
If Trump, by some miracle, wins the Republican nomination, I'll vote write in for Ron Paul. I don't care that he's not even running, I just won't vote for Trump in any circumstance. Seriously, Trump vs. Hillary would be the worst election in the history of America.


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Old 02-03-2016, 04:56 PM   #747
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Or you could vote for the Democratic candidate.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:05 PM   #748
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Trump is a sociopathic, narcissistic, dangerous, perverted moron. I wouldn't be surprised if he loses New Hampshire, too.
He's using this whole Cruz/Carson thing to make the claim that he was being treated unfairly. Then he'll go third party. The whole fiasco was 100% on the Carson campaign anyway. Saying he's gonna go home to FL to get a change of clothes? Wtf? Are you serious?
If Trump, by some miracle, wins the Republican nomination, I'll vote write in for Ron Paul. I don't care that he's not even running, I just won't vote for Trump in any circumstance. Seriously, Trump vs. Hillary would be the worst election in the history of America.


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He won't waste money on an Independent run. He's barely spent any money so far.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:23 PM   #749
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Or you could vote for the Democratic candidate.


those baby killers?
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:40 PM   #750
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So Trump was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by anonymous.

Thanks Obama


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