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Old 11-06-2012, 12:49 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
Furthermore, in the event that the GOP takes the office, I have faith that whatever platform Romney will be pushing against civil rights, social freedoms, etc., will be repelled by the people and the congress. Either that, or he'll flat out forget about them because quite honestly I get the impression that Mitt Romney doesn't give a shit about that stuff. He's a businessman, smooth talker, and a liar. Not a religious nut.
I think you're right on your description of Romney, and I also do think most Americans would ultimately reject such extremes.

Thing is, though, I'm not all that convinced Congress would necessarily reject that stuff. Romney may not be a fundamentalist nut, but the party he represents has a lot of that going on and if they don't think he's going far enough, they'll push him or push themselves harder into the fray.

Even if they don't succeed, the idea of them even at least trying to implement the policies is still pretty troubling.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:00 AM   #317
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Oh, bullshit. I'm not painting it black-and-white. I'm saying that, the day before the election, it's plain as day that this is not the year where a third party candidate is making a difference. I'm not saying it can't ever happen (though there need to be fundamental changes to the system for it to ever happen). I'm just saying that voting for a third party candidate in this election is a complete and total waste of a vote.

If Gary Johnson had a chance to make a dent in this election, you would know it by now. It's November 5th. He's out. Voting for Johnson is taking a vote away from whoever you think is better, whether that be Romney or Obama.

As Irvine said, third party voting is part of what created the George W. Bush presidency.

Idealism is great. But it's not practical in every situation. This is one of those times.
How are you not? You're telling me I have two options, and that I'm a 'cop out' if I don't vote for my favorite color being red or blue when I don't like either color, nor do I favor one over the other.

I don't like mayo and I don't like mustard. I wont eat the sandwich if they're on it. I'll eat it if it has ketchup. Nobody else wants ketchup? I don't care.

You do realize by putting your doubts in a third party, that's the very reason they'll never achieve majority status? Do you understand how 'making a difference' works with a third party candidate? As stated before, if the Libertarians can get 5% of the vote, that will grant them $90 million worth of campaign money in the next election and equal ballot access.

Call it a waste of a vote, whatever. To me that just means you don't quite understand where I'm coming from with this vote, nor do you understand what the implications of it are.

As Irvine failed to note, the Electoral College created the GWB presidency. In a state too close to count, someone pulled straws and the system won GWB presidency when in fact the people chose Al Gore. You can throw ifs and buts and whatever all around, but in reality you're just as good getting mad at the stupid system as you are getting mad at a tiny fraction of a percentage of the nations voters, because ultimately there will always be both, but one idea is certainly much more fundamentally flawed.

Why you've still got this notion of 'voting for who you think is better' I still do not understand. I do not think either selection is better. I think voting for either is a waste of my vote. I can vote for Obama, and I can be the 1 vote difference that makes Obama POTUS once again, or I could be the 1 vote difference that makes Mitt Romney POTUS, and guess what? I wouldn't give a shit. Neither of them represent me, and I do not favor either. My vote will have been wasted because you or others want me to vote red or blue, and I don't want to.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:03 AM   #318
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And for what it's worth, on the 2000 Election, I think digitize brought up a very fair point. Voting Jill Stein (or Ralph Nader for that matter) is almost equally voting Democrat. Voting Libertarian is voting on a whole different level of fundamentals.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:06 AM   #319
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I apologize, everyone. I should have never engaged LN7 on this.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:59 AM   #320
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In the US Libertarians are people too embarrassed to admit they are Republicans.


I see third party candidates for President as little more than attention whores. They don't have the infrastructure in place to actually accomplish anything -- they just want to spout off their ideas. That's fine and dandy, but it doesn't DO anything except give one person who loves the sound of his or her own voice a podium. If that floats your boat, go for it. I'm too pragmatic to vote for a third party candidate.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:08 AM   #321
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Not really my place but I'd side with LN7 on this one. It's one vote, and I'm sure in the USA one vote isn't going to make a fucking difference. If LN7 votes Libertarian that's not going to be the difference between Romney and Obama. You might as well use your vote on whoever represents your views most closely, even though that party won't win. That's what I'll be doing next Australian election. I don't see how it's a cop-out. Everyone goes "fuck it I'll pick between two" and you're going to be stuck between the same two choices for eternity. I've always been a realist but if you're unhappy you might as well make your voice heard. Particularly given it's not compulsory. A third party gets an extra 0.5% every election and eventually people will pay a little more notice.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:33 AM   #322
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Hard to compare with Australia given we're enlightened enough to have preferential voting. Nobody in Australia voting Green or Democrat or Fundies First is throwing away their vote in the final Labour/Liberal race.

I don't see the big deal in voting third party in the US in a state where the outcome is obvious, since the national popular vote outcome is totally irrelevant, but if you're in a swing state, I'm more sympathetic to the argument that you're wasting your vote if you vote third party. (I'm most sympathetic to the argument that you're wasting your vote if you don't vote Obama.)
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:07 AM   #323
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The fact that Obama did so well in two northern NH towns that usually go GOP is an ominous sign for Romney.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:45 AM   #324
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Hard to compare with Australia given we're enlightened enough to have preferential voting. Nobody in Australia voting Green or Democrat or Fundies First is throwing away their vote in the final Labour/Liberal race.
Ahh, but our Constitution was Divinely Inspired, so our absur... err, perfect presidential election system must be preserved forever.

How about this compromise to make everyone happy: the Republican Party is eliminated and the Libertarian Party magically takes its place. That would get rid of all of the social issue absurdity coming from the right. It would also do much better things for foreign affairs. If Gary Johnson were the primary challenger to Barack Obama, I don't think Obama would get away with his drone strikes (my biggest complaint about this administration) so easily. Finally, I would really enjoy an economic debate between ideologically-consistent Keynesians and ideologically-consistent Classicists (borderline Austrians?).
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:08 AM   #325
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Obama is an ideologically-consistent Keynesian now? Okay...
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:18 AM   #326
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Obama is an ideologically-consistent Keynesian now? Okay...
He's not. I should explain more. I think that, if there was an ideologically consistent "other side", the Democrats would be somewhat more likely to hold down a consistent position. I think. Or maybe not.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:22 AM   #327
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The fact that Obama did so well in two northern NH towns that usually go GOP is an ominous sign for Romney.
You mean Dixville Notch? What's the other one? Dixville was 5/5 Romney /Obama.

As for Elizabeth Warren all polls have that one very close. I would love to see MA have our first female Senator and that would be a QUALIFIED one. And I think she's qualified. Scott Brown touts himself as the second most bipartisan Senator but I just don't see it. If Obama is reelected that won't matter, one guy up against all that. Same if Romney is elected, don't think Brown will go all Democrat on us. One guy just can't create bipartisanship in that mess. That's why people like Olympia Snowe are getting out. And his voting record seems sort of fuzzy in that regard.

Come on, we have Republicans criticizing Christie for being too complimentary of Obama re Hurricane Sandy. That's the situation we're in. The story came out this week that Christie was Mitt's first choice for VP, but he did things to tick them off.

About third party -like I said in the other thread, if you're comfortable with the idea of possibly helping Mitt win then that's fine. But you're not going to change the system by voting that way today. I get and admire the desire to change it.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:35 AM   #328
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Not really my place but I'd side with LN7 on this one. It's one vote, and I'm sure in the USA one vote isn't going to make a fucking difference.
Keep in mind that in 2000 the election was decided by a less than 600 vote difference in Florida. That's only a few people saying that one vote won't make a difference.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:46 AM   #329
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Keep in mind that in 2000 the election was decided by a less than 600 vote difference in Florida. That's only a few people saying that one vote won't make a difference.


Exactly.

I am about to go vote in VA (likely for the last time, we'll probably move back into DC itself in the next few months) and I really do feel like my vote counts.

It's very energizing. Was hard to sleep last night.

Vote for third parties all you want. But don't be surprised when you get blamed for 2000. At least defend that rather than pass it off on something else. Just let us know that it was more important to try to get a candidate to 5% of the vote than it was to prevent the worst president in all our lifetimes to win the office in 2000.

At least own that.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:58 AM   #330
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Yes. If you don't have a problem with what happened in the 8 years under Bush. You do have to think about that.

I always think my vote counts. Especially as a woman. We had to work to even have the right to vote. I never take that for granted.
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