2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread-Part 10.

[Diemen]

And we're just supposed to take a random youtube video as the cold hard truth on the matter, are we?

 

[VintagePunk]

And we're just supposed to take a random youtube video as the cold hard truth on the matter, are we?

It's what conspiracy theorists do best.

 

[diamond]

if this thing gets legs and is proved to be true, i won't gloat, because it would be a fraud upon millions and millons of democrats and a very sad day for our country.

i personally hope it's not true.

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[Harry Vest]

because it's extremist BS thats why...

Ya, and McCain/Palin are extremeists...right!!!
So why are they not bringing this up???????

And like Diamond said - why doesn't he just show his birth certificate????
Or has he and this is just yet another distraction by the right?????

It's either one or the other and at least I WANT TO KNOW WHICH IT IS instead of just writing it off as either an extremist bullshit conspiracy theory or something akin to the truth. There is a middle ground between both factions don't you think? I'd just like a better explanation that's all.

 

[VintagePunk]

Ya, and McCain/Palin are extremeists...right!!!
So why are they not bringing this up???????

And like Diamond said - why doesn't he just show his birth certificate????
Or has he and this is just yet another distraction by the right?????

It's either one or the other and at least I WANT TO KNOW WHICH IT IS instead of just writing it off as either an extremist bullshit conspiracy theory or something akin to the truth. There is a middle ground between both factions don't you think? I'd just like a better explanation that's all.

Stop and take a deep breath, and use your critical thinking skills for a sec.


Okay. Do you honestly think that whatever body is in charge of US elections would allow a candidate to get this far into the process without official confirmation as to their birth/US citizenship? Think about it really hard.

In light of that, the reason that McCain/Palin are not bringing it up is because there is nothing there, and even a campaign as inept as McCain's has been KNOWS there is nothing there.

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Stop and take a deep breath, and use your critical thinking skills for a sec.


Okay. Do you honestly think that whatever body is in charge of US elections would allow a candidate to get this far into the process without official confirmation as to their birth/US citizenship? Think about it really hard.

In light of that, the reason that McCain/Palin are not bringing it up is because there is nothing there, and even a campaign as inept as McCain's has been KNOWS there is nothing there.

thanks VP. Couldn't of said it better myself.

 

[Diemen]

Ya, and McCain/Palin are extremeists...right!!!
So why are they not bringing this up???????

Wow did you miss that point entirely. It's extremist BS, and McCain/Palin aren't bringing it up because they're not extremists.

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Ya, and McCain/Palin are extremeists...right!!!
So why are they not bringing this up???????

And like Diamond said - why doesn't he just show his birth certificate????
Or has he and this is just yet another distraction by the right?????

It's either one or the other and at least I WANT TO KNOW WHICH IT IS instead of just writing it off as either an extremist bullshit conspiracy theory or something akin to the truth. There is a middle ground between both factions don't you think? I'd just like a better explanation that's all.

chill out dude.. Why aren't the republicans picking this up? I mean Drudge didn't even pick this up and they post pretty extreme things on that site. A youtube vid is certainly not a basis for truth either. And as VP said the gov't body that evaluates potential candidates wouldn't of let this go this far if it were true.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

And if the McCain campaign thought they had an Automatic Disqualification card in their back pocket ready to be pulled out at any time, you think they’d be running such a chaotic and clearly defensive campaign? It would be reversed – the McCain camp, despite the polls, would be calm and on message knowing they would be ahead at the end, and the Obama camp, likely aware, would be in total panic mode. It’s currently the reverse.

 

[diamond]

Stop and take a deep breath, and use your and even a campaign as inept as McCain's has been KNOWS there is nothing there.

you give the opposition credit only when it benefits your position.

they're inept in everything else but this- picking sarah p yada yada-etc.

maybe they couldn't fathom that Barry would even try this.

suspect reasoning on your part VP.

also the CHIEF accuser is A DEMOCRAT.

what up?

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[martha]

If it's on you tube it must be true!!11!!!!

 

[VintagePunk]

you give the opposition credit only when it benefits your position.

they're inept in everything else but this- picking sarah p yada yada-etc.

maybe they couldn't fathom that Barry would even try this.

suspect reasoning on your part VP.

also the CHIEF accuser is A DEMOCRAT.

what up?

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Stop and take a deep breath, and use your critical thinking skills for a sec.


Okay. Do you honestly think that whatever body is in charge of US elections would allow a candidate to get this far into the process without official confirmation as to their birth/US citizenship? Think about it really hard.

Desperation.

 

[diamond]

If it's on you tube it must be true!!11!!!!

no it's been proven here that the daily kos is far more reputable..



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[Diemen]

no the daily kos is far more reputable.



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Than youtube? You bet it is.

 

[kellyahern]

If it's on you tube it must be true!!11!!!!

So McCain isn't a zombie then? Darn

YouTube - Zombie McCain Wants Honesty

 

[Utoo]

Diamond, where the fuck is John McCain's birth certificate? I haven't seen it! I bet the geezer was born outside of the US! Oh, wait....he's white, and his parents are American, so he must've been born in the US. Obama, on the other hand, he's black, his dad's Kenyan....shit! He couldn't have been born in the U.S.! Or, at least Obama has to prove to me that he was born here; McCain, shit, I can just assume he was born here!

First off, Obama's mom never went to Kenya. His dad came from Kenya to Hawaii; his mom never went to Africa.

Second, even if Obama's mom changed her citizenship when she moved to Indonesia---which she didn't do---it wouldn't affect Obama's citizenship at all.

Here is one of many websites that debunk this crackpot "lawyer"'s fantasy: http://www.yestodemocracy.com/yes_to_democracy_no_to_pu/2008/08/wingnuts-away-.html


Dude, the way you putz around and play games on this forum is exactly the same as the way nutjobs like Karl Rove, Tucker Bounds, and other slimy Republicans spin their bullshit as if politics were simply a game for their enjoyment.

I await the scan of your birth certificate.

 

[diamond]

yes that's the official story, but he has never delivered his birth certificate, only a photo shopped one on his website.

why?

john mccain has cooperated early on.


well, we'll see how this plays out.

you think it will come out in tomorrow nights' debate so barry can clear his good name?

do you?

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[JOFO]

I'd rather have had any non American with half a brain have run this country than the idiot in charge for the last 8.

Dispute that.

 

[martha]

yes that's the official story, but he has never delivered his birth certificate, only a photo shopped one on his website.

why?

Are you fucking serious?

 

[toscano]

yes that's the official story, but he has never delivered his birth certificate, only a photo shopped one on his website.

why?

john mccain has cooperated early on.


well, we'll see how this plays out.

you think it will come out in tomorrow nights' debate so barry can clear his good name?

do you?

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You ARE aware that a birth certificate would have been required to get a passport, right ? Is the right THIS desperate ? Really ?

 

[JOFO]

You ARE aware that a birth certificate would have been required to get a passport, right ? Is the right THIS desperate ? Really ?

Yeah, apparently they are.

 

[U2isthebest]

diamond, can you say "bullshit"?

 

[Utoo]

john mccain has cooperated early on.

I guess we can assume that McCain's isn't photoshopped since he can't use a computer.

McCain's Birth Abroad Stirs Legal Debate
His Eligibility for Presidency Is Questioned

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 2, 2008; Page A06

The Senate has unanimously declared John McCain a natural-born citizen, eligible to be president of the United States.

That is the good news for the presumptive Republican nominee, who was born nearly 72 years ago in a military hospital in the Panama Canal Zone, then under U.S. jurisdiction. The bad news is that the nonbinding Senate resolution passed Wednesday night is simply an opinion that has little bearing on an arcane constitutional debate that has preoccupied legal scholars for many weeks.

Article II of the Constitution states that "no person except a natural born citizen . . . shall be eligible to the office of president." The problem is that the Founding Fathers never defined exactly what they meant by "natural born citizen," and the matter has never been fully tested in court. At least three pending cases are challenging McCain's right to be sworn in as president.

Jurists on both sides of the political divide, consulted by the McCain campaign, insist that the issue is clear-cut. They argue that McCain is a natural-born citizen because the United States held sovereignty over the Panama Canal Zone at the time of his birth, on Aug. 29, 1936; because he was born on a U.S. military base; and because his parents were U.S. citizens.

But Sarah H. Duggin, an associate law professor at Catholic University who has studied the "natural born" issue in detail, said the question is "not so simple." While she said McCain would probably prevail in a determined legal challenge to his eligibility to be president, she added that the matter can be fully resolved only by a constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court decision.
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"The Constitution is ambiguous," Duggin said. "The McCain side has some really good arguments, but ultimately there has never been any real resolution of this issue. Congress cannot legislatively change the meaning of the Constitution."

Senators sympathetic to McCain's position, including Democrats Claire McCaskill (Mo.) and Patrick J. Leahy (Vt.), dropped an earlier attempt to quell the eligibility controversy with legislation. McCaskill acknowledged in an interview that there is "no way" to completely resolve the question short of a constitutional amendment, a cumbersome process which could not be concluded before November.

She described the nonbinding resolution, which she sponsored, as "the quickest, clearest and most efficient" way for the Senate to send a message to the courts that McCain has the right to be president.

One person who disagrees with that premise is New Hampshire resident Fred Hollander, who has filed a suit in U.S. District Court claiming that the Republican candidate is "not a natural born citizen." In an attempt to prove his argument, the 49-year-old computer programmer filed a subpoena last month seeking McCain's birth certificate.

The Department of Homeland Security, which oversees citizenship services, declined to hand over copies of the document, saying the subpoena was improperly served.

In his autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain writes that he was born "in the Canal Zone" at the U.S. Naval Air Station in Coco Solo, which was under the command of his grandfather, John S. McCain Sr. The senator's father, John S. McCain Jr., was an executive officer on a submarine, also based in Coco Solo. His mother, Roberta McCain, now 96, has vivid memories of lying in bed listening to raucous celebrations of her son's birth from the nearby officers' club.

The birth was announced two days later in the English-language Panamanian American newspaper. A senior official of the McCain campaign showed a reporter a copy of the senator's birth certificate issued by Canal Zone health authorities, recording his birth in the Coco Solo "family hospital."

Curiously enough, there is no record of McCain's birth in the Panama Canal Zone Health Department's bound birth registers, which are publicly available at the National Archives in College Park. A search of the "Child Born Abroad" records of the U.S. consular service for August 1936 included many U.S. citizens born in the Canal Zone but did not turn up any mention of John McCain.

Possible discrepancies in the bureaucratic paperwork are of little concern to Laurence Tribe, a Harvard law professor who looked into the case at the McCain campaign's request. Tribe examined the issue along with Theodore B. Olson, his onetime nemesis in the 2000 Supreme Court case Bush v. Gore.

Tribe said it would be "astonishing if the recordkeeping practices of Canal Zone [officials] could have any bearing on eligibility for the U.S. presidency."

The key constitutional issue is whether the Canal Zone was part of the United States at the time of McCain's birth. In a memorandum, Tribe and Olson cite a 1986 Supreme Court ruling stating that the United States "exercised sovereignty" over the 10-mile-wide area between 1904 and 1979, when it was handed back to the Panamanians. Hollander and others challenging McCain's eligibility argue that the zone was never part of the United States.

Duggin, the constitutional law scholar, said the sovereignty question is "more complex" than Olson and Tribe concede. People born in some U.S. territories, such as American Samoa, are not recognized as citizens of the United States.

According to a State Department manual, U.S. military installations abroad cannot be considered "part of the United States" and "A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth." Tribe said the manual is an "opinion" with no legal status.

There are few precedents for someone born outside the 50 states running for president, let alone becoming president. The best example the McCain camp has been able to come up with is Vice President Charles Curtis, who served under President Herbert Hoover and was born in the territory of Kansas in 1860, a year before it became a state. The 12th Amendment requires that vice presidents possess the same qualifications as presidents.

Several prominent politicians have run for the presidency without having been born in the United States, including Barry Goldwater, who was born in the territory of Arizona in 1909, three years before it became a state. Mitt Romney's father, George Romney, ran in 1968, even though he was born in Mexico. Since neither Goldwater nor Romney won the presidency, the "natural born" clause was never tested.

Duggin believes that Hollander and the other plaintiffs are likely to have a hard time establishing their own eligibility, or legal standing, to challenge McCain. She said it will be difficult for them to demonstrate that they have been "disenfranchised" because of the mere presence on the ballot of a candidate with debatable constitutional qualifications.

But she said the matter should be sorted out before the election, rather than afterward: "Imagine what would happen if the courts were to overturn an election simply based on eligibility. It would be a disaster. After what happened in 2000, people would completely lose faith in the electoral process."

 

[Utoo]

From the August 1961 edition of the Honolulu Advertiser:

I'm still waiting to actually see John McCain's birth certificate.


And yours.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Do you think Obama will bring that up tomorrow night so Johnny can clear his name?

do you?

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[diamond]

And yours.

I'm the Omega Man.

Seriously-that's looking more legit.

The next question:
How come the fat Democrat hasn't dimissed his suit then?

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[diamond]

From the August 1961 edition of the Honolulu Advertiser:

I'm still waiting to actually see John McCain's birth certificate.


And yours.

Utoo

Why is the date June 6th 2007, stamped on this document?

It's not the original, where's the original?



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[toscano]

Utoo

Why is the date June 6th 2007, stamped on this document?

It's not the original, where's the original?



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It wouldn't be the first time someone got a copy of a birth certificate, did it myself for my middle child, as I lost it in a move, perfectly legal, proof enough of citizenship to get him his passport.

You're tilting at windmills son.....there's just no story here with any legs.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I'm still waiting to actually [I]see[/I] John McCain's birth certificate.


And yours.[/QUOTE]

Well, McCain's birth already was an issue, why not make it even for the sake of it... however borderline it is.
[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23406107/]McCain: Citizenship issue put to rest long ago - John McCain News - MSNBC.com[/url]

 

[diamond]

Isnt Factcheck.org owned by the Anneberg of Chicago that Obama sat on the board of disbursing 60 Million Dollars a year-conflict of interest here, where they are trying to legitamize this birth certificate.