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Old 04-03-2002, 02:49 AM   #16
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thanks Mug222
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Funny, a quote was just posted at the Marc Maron message board that sort of pertains to this subject:

"There are those whose own vulgar normality is so apparent and stultifying that they strive to escape it. They affect flamboyant behavior and claim originality according to the fashionable eccentricities of their time. They claim brains or talent or indifference to mores in desperate attempts to deny their own mediocrity. These are frequently artists and performers, adventurers and wildlife devotees.

Then there are those who feel their own strangeness and are terrified by it. They struggle toward normalcy. They suffer to exactly that degree that they are unable to appear normal to others, or to convince themselves that their aberration does not exist. Those are true freaks, who appear, almost always, conventional and dull." --Katherine Dunn (from the novel Geek Love)

Actually, I'm not sure how much it really pertains to this discussion, but whatever...
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Old 04-03-2002, 12:53 PM   #17
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From hermes post:

"Then there are those who feel their own strangeness and are terrified by it. They struggle toward normalcy. They suffer to exactly that degree that they are unable to appear normal to others, or to convince themselves that their aberration does not exist. Those are true freaks, who appear, almost always, conventional and dull." --Katherine Dunn (from the novel Geek Love)"
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its very scary to read a quote like that and realise the first you think is...shit! thats me
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Old 04-03-2002, 05:47 PM   #18
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In regards to part #2 of hermes' post on my signature (BTW, I love what you wrote on part #1), I should give you the entire context of that quote, which is, directly, a critique on Thatcher-era politics and leftism:

"Like the hippies we disdained materialism. Yet we were less frivolous that the original 'heads.' If we dropped out to become carpenters and gardeners it was because we wanted to share the experience of the working class. We were an earnest and moral generation, with severe politics. We were the last generation to defend communism. I knew people who holidayed in Albania; apparently the beaches are exquisite. An acquaintance supported the Soviet Union on the day they invaded Afghanistan.

We were dismissive and contemptuous of Thatcherism, but so captivated by our own ideological obsessions that we couldn't see its appeal. Which isn't to say that we didn't fight it. There was the miners' strike, and the battles at Wapping. We were left enervated and confused. Soon we didn't know what we believed. Some remained on the left; others retreated into sexual politics; some became Thatcherites. We were the kind of people who held the Labour Party back.

Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work."

Of course, perhaps why I clung to this quote is because I'm beginning my post-idealistic jump into the world; one where my once extreme left beliefs now would actually exclude me as a "yuppie."

As young as I am (21 going on 22), I've always been painfully observant, with the reality now that we work the most out of everyone in industrialized nations, and, yet, we don't ever seem to have *enough.* Go back 10 years, and we used to laugh at Japan for working themselves to the point of suicide. Ultimately, at the present, are we any different? And are we really any wealthier?

Go back 35 years, and we used to have a very strong industrial economy for its time, where we needed, really, no more than a high school diploma and the man working a 40-hour work week to live very highly. Now, we demand more and more education for less and less buying power with worse benefits and more forced overtime than ever, with a dual-income household just to keep afloat in many instances.

And, I ask myself, is it really all worth it? It is pretty damn obvious that we have no time for ourselves and our families, as we have a high divorce rate and children raised on babysitters and day care. And we wonder why we have such a breakdown of families?

Once again, I am tortured by my knowledge of what was and what is.

So, in essence, that quote made a lot of sense to me. Maybe it didn't to others, so I apologize.

Melon

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"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:36 PM   #19
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didn't offend me or anything, no apology needed for me.

I've just been a bit sensitive lately about blind attacks against political parties and beliefs. Let's just say in my every day life the past couple days Iíve encountered those have been highly critical of a few different viewpoints, ones I don't even share, and they had no idea what those viewpoints actually mean. It didn't end well. Talking to walls, I suppose.

But please, donít apologize for anything you believe in, even when I disagree with you, you've seemed thought out and educated in your opinions. Much healthier discusions and much mroe fun than I've had to deal with lately.

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As for society, I agree all those problems exist. I donít think weíre any better or worse off than we were 35 years ago, when you look at society as a whole.

I do think a troubling trend is that people have their priorities backwards in most instances. We have a sickening cycle of consumerism. We have political parties which are buying into this cycle because, well that's where the votes are. We have business creating and being created by this cycle.

Which is where I get frustrated. How do you change the hearts of people?

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