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Old 11-04-2004, 01:11 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Se7en
i think it's interesting how people (esp. fundamental christians) take from the torah what is useful for their current agenda and discard the rest.

i mean, let's look at leviticus shall we?

A man who lies with a man...shall be put to death, their blood is upon themselves. (Leviticus 20:13)

so obviously most sane people wouldn't accept the slaughter of homosexuals; we'll just leave the death part out but keep the moral principle. we can just ostricize them rather than lynch them. pay no mind to the fact that jesus never once mentioned homosexuality in his ministry (despite the title "christian"). i'm pretty sure he stuck to love and brotherhood.

why don't christians adhere to all of the laws of moses if they insist on maintaining that homosexuality is evil? you can't pick and choose which laws are still applicable and leave the rest out because they are inconvenient. where's the consistency in that?
The Biblical view of homosexuality crosses both Old and New Testament. With multiple references, it is hard to dismiss a concept as no longer applying.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:20 PM   #32
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It actually horrifies me that some people are so hostile to the gay marriage issue. I'm in full support of it, and the idea of such discrimination against any one group concerns me. But, dare I say, it is something that will eventually be introduced. It might not be this year, or maybe not next year, but it's inevitible.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:30 PM   #33
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Now that we've started to cross this line here in the U.S. What happens with the other "sins"(I put this in quotes because no one has ever convinced me that homosexuality is)? Adultery is a sin, one I believe almost all people of religion or even outside of religion believe. Should we assign punishment maybe jailtime, or maybe we can make it so they can't have sex again, you know take away their rights.

What about this one? Since we are moving closer and closer to fundamentalism what if someone decides to ammend the constitution to state that no one can practice a religion outside the Judeo-Christian beliefs. I mean I know several "Christians" that belive this is a sin. They say it says so in the Bible so why not deny them rights? How is this any different than banning the rights of homosexuals?

Doesn't seem consistent to me. Oh well I'm sure it's not just discrimination because we don't do that in America, can't be hate...
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:09 PM   #34
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The Biblical view of homosexuality crosses both Old and New Testament. With multiple references, it is hard to dismiss a concept as no longer applying.
I am curious to know where in the new testament it says that Homosexuality is a sin?

It doesn't really matter what the Bible, or any "bible" for that matter, says about Homosexuality. Marriage is "not" a religious bond all of the time. I mean you don't have to be "religious" to be married, obviously.

So, I don't even see why religion is even a factor in this debate. In a perfect world, it would not be. Sure, the Catholic Church, for example, could not allow Homosexuals to be married in their church. That's fine. But not the states, and certaily not the federal government. What right do they have in saying that a marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman? What "law" are they following?

I don't know....
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:28 PM   #35
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I just have a problem with the whole "God says so" argument on this one. You can believe anything you want to believe based on God, but this is not a Christian nation -- this is a free nation with no state mandated religion. What gives you a right to decide what is morally correct for the rest of the country including those who are not your religion? What right do you have to tell an agnostic gay couple they can't marry? How exactly does allowing gay men to marry harm you and your church? No one who supports these bans can support them without God?
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
I just have a problem with the whole "God says so" argument on this one. You can believe anything you want to believe based on God, but this is not a Christian nation -- this is a free nation with no state mandated religion. What gives you a right to decide what is morally correct for the rest of the country including those who are not your religion? What right do you have to tell an agnostic gay couple they can't marry? How exactly does allowing gay men to marry harm you and your church? No one who supports these bans can support them without God?
Some people just fear God more than man, you know? That's not necessarily a bad thing...and I don't think they're telling people anything. They voted, you voted, we all vote. We all express what we believe that way.

Sure, and some people probably DID support the amendments without God.

I don't see your point.

P.S. all the amendment was in Utah was to make the wording in our state constitution clearer.
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
I just have a problem with the whole "God says so" argument on this one. You can believe anything you want to believe based on God, but this is not a Christian nation -- this is a free nation with no state mandated religion. What gives you a right to decide what is morally correct for the rest of the country including those who are not your religion? What right do you have to tell an agnostic gay couple they can't marry? How exactly does allowing gay men to marry harm you and your church? No one who supports these bans can support them without God?
Do I not have a right to decide what is morally right and base my vote on what I decide is morally right?

The more people scream "you voted wrong" - the further away you drive them.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:00 PM   #38
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I was increadbly depressed to see that 11 states voted in such a matter. What happend to everyone is equal? Who cares who has sex with who, it DOESN'T EFFECT YOU. Why are we going back to the days of slavery, one person being better than another. Why should your religious beliefs effect what others do in their own personal lives. I can't believe we all live in the same country
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:08 PM   #39
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Do I not have a right to decide what is morally right and base my vote on what I decide is morally right?

The more people scream "you voted wrong" - the further away you drive them.
Yep. What's hard for those who scream, though, is to accept the fact, though, that even if they are civil they still won't vote the way you want. That is very hard for some people to take, so then they opt to scream anyway.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:09 PM   #40
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Originally posted by mellyinsf
I was increadbly depressed to see that 11 states voted in such a matter. What happend to everyone is equal? Who cares who has sex with who, it DOESN'T EFFECT YOU. Why are we going back to the days of slavery, one person being better than another. Why should your religious beliefs effect what others do in their own personal lives. I can't believe we all live in the same country
This is your perspective, and not a very bright one. I prefer to see it as a chance for things to be worked out.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:18 PM   #41
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


This is your perspective, and not a very bright one. I prefer to see it as a chance for things to be worked out.
work what out? Are you waiting for God to change his opinion?
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:19 PM   #42
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Originally posted by mellyinsf

work what out? Are you waiting for God to change his opinion?


Or, for people to just be able to work things out.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:23 PM   #43
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Originally posted by U2Traveller




Or, for people to just be able to work things out.
Untill then let's just all make it illegal for two people who love each other to participate in what to others is a right.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Do I not have a right to decide what is morally right and base my vote on what I decide is morally right?

The more people scream "you voted wrong" - the further away you drive them.
Yes, but here in the U.S., you must also base your vote on what's right for all Americans, not just the Christian Americans. Jesus said in the Bible we must love thy neighbor. Jesus never said "Gays are going to hell." And really, what harm does it do to you personally if some guy down the street marrys another guy? It's not going to turn you gay.

Back in the 1960's there was a case before the Supreme Court called Love vs. Virginia. A law in Virginia stated that you couldn't marry someone of a different race. They based the law on the fact that the Bible, according to them, supported the separation of the races not only in marriage but also in everyday law. This is how the South supported the Jim Crow laws. The Supreme Court struck down the marriage ban, saying it was unconstitutional and that Love, a black man, had the right to marry regardless of race, in this case his white wife. Here we are fifty years later. Few people would say interracial marriage is wrong, no one would put a ban to interracial marriage on a state-wide ballot.

Now replace "black" and "white" in the Love case with "gay" and "gay". What's the fundamental difference between the two cases?

If we start with gays, when are we going to stop? What's next? You can't marry someone of a different religion? Because I'm Catholic and I'm marrying a Jew next year and the government has no right to tell me who I can or can't marry. Why should gender be a factor?
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:34 PM   #45
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Originally posted by sharky


Yes, but here in the U.S., you must also base your vote on what's right for all Americans, not just the Christian Americans. Jesus said in the Bible we must love thy neighbor. Jesus never said "Gays are going to hell." And really, what harm does it do to you personally if some guy down the street marrys another guy? It's not going to turn you gay.

Back in the 1960's there was a case before the Supreme Court called Love vs. Virginia. A law in Virginia stated that you couldn't marry someone of a different race. They based the law on the fact that the Bible, according to them, supported the separation of the races not only in marriage but also in everyday law. This is how the South supported the Jim Crow laws. The Supreme Court struck down the marriage ban, saying it was unconstitutional and that Love, a black man, had the right to marry regardless of race, in this case his white wife. Here we are fifty years later. Few people would say interracial marriage is wrong, no one would put a ban to interracial marriage on a state-wide ballot.

Now replace "black" and "white" in the Love case with "gay" and "gay". What's the fundamental difference between the two cases?

If we start with gays, when are we going to stop? What's next? You can't marry someone of a different religion? Because I'm Catholic and I'm marrying a Jew next year and the government has no right to tell me who I can or can't marry. Why should gender be a factor?
Well, we've already prevented incestuous couples from marrying, even if they're menopausal or gay (precluding the possibility of giving birth to defomed kids).

So tell me again why it's so horrible that gays can get married in Massachusetts but not Ohio?
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