11 states vote on gay marriage

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nbcrusader said:


I think we are fooling ourselves if we believe that societal influences play no part in science or in what science will say or is allowed to say.

You're right in general. I didn't agree with this particular example, I don't think homosexuality belongs in DSM-IV. But there's no question that social trends influence science in general. My own father is a retired scientist and his field, cardiology, has changed drastically. There's not as much heart disease from cholesterol and smoking because these are down. Unfortunately, the heart disease numbers in general haven't changed because obesity is now causing much more heart disease than it used to. Sometimes science reflects social trends in a pretty graphic way and sometimes it's more vague and indirect.
 
I feel as if human beings have disowned God and have turned to science as an alternative. Science preaches no moral principles, nor does it have any boundaries. To me, that's scary. Society controls science in a sense that "anything goes", when science should really be helping the people who need it. The responsiblility lacking, promiscuous crowd controls the direction that science has taken, and it's all politics, and an excuse to avoid moral standards.

We have this assumption that Science is always right, regardless of what scripture tells us.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
For any of you who were offended by my stance on society, I apologize, but I think we owe the gay community the love that Jesus would give them, but love without truth isn't really love at all.

Gay Christians believe they already have Jesus's love. What we owe the gay community is not Jesus's love, but the same respect and civil liberties the rest of us enjoy. Truth without love isn't truth at all and I fail to see the love in denying gays the rights everyone else has.
 
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Macfistowannabe said:
I feel as if human beings have disowned God and have turned to science as an alternative. Science preaches no moral principles, nor does it have any boundaries. To me, that's scary. Society controls science in a sense that "anything goes", when science should really be helping the people who need it. The responsiblility lacking, promiscuous crowd controls the direction that science has taken, and it's all politics, and an excuse to avoid moral standards.

We have this assumption that Science is always right, regardless of what scripture tells us.

Actually I agree with you. People have elevated science onto a pedestal where it really doesn't belong. They don't believe anything that can't be proved in an experiment. I do not share this view, needless to say. I've heard people say "religion is all superstition, it's not based on concrete proof". Science shouldn't be used as a substitute for religion. I hesitate to comment on the morality of someone just because they don't think like I do. But there's a real problem when someone doesn't think anything is wrong. That's not cool. I look at the stuff I was taught in my catechism as my moral guide. You've got to have some morality and believe some things are wrong and some things are right.
 
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joyfulgirl said:


Gay Christians believe they already have Jesus's love. What we owe the gay community is not Jesus's love, but the same respect and civil liberties the rest of us enjoy. Truth without love isn't truth at all and I fail to see the love in denying gays the rights everyone else has.
As far as gay Christians, I'm not the judge on that issue - God is. However, as a Christian, I believe we should share our unconditional love, but it means nothing to God unless we also share the truth. We may never have proof or a universal definition of what homosexuality is without the word of God, but to be fair, I'm a sinner too. If it's a sin to deny gay marriage, that's something I will learn from God.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
I feel as if human beings have disowned God and have turned to science as an alternative. Science preaches no moral principles, nor does it have any boundaries. To me, that's scary. Society controls science in a sense that "anything goes", when science should really be helping the people who need it. The responsiblility lacking, promiscuous crowd controls the direction that science has taken, and it's all politics, and an excuse to avoid moral standards.

We have this assumption that Science is always right, regardless of what scripture tells us.

Why is it God and science can't co-exist? I think many choose to ignore science because they take bits and pieces of the Bible too literal, and many choose to ignore the existence of God because they can't believe in anything that not proven in a lab. But I believe they co-exist.

The promiscuous crowd controls science...that was funny.

Scripture is interpreted just as much by politics, just like that of science.

I'm sorry but as humans we will NEVER know 100% of the truth, you even said so yourself.
 
You're right, society also influences what the churches teach. At one point they claimed that slavery was scriptural. The scientists took themselves out of the morality department because that was for the churches to decide on. You don't have to choose between science and religion if you ask me. You can respect the scientists for what they do, and the church for what it teaches.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
However, as a Christian, I believe we should share our unconditional love, but it means nothing to God unless we also share the Truth.

:up: Even when it is unpopular or deemed offensive.

Unfortunately, due to fault of the speaker, the hearer, or both, this does not come across as loving.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
I feel as if human beings have disowned God and have turned to science as an alternative. Science preaches no moral principles, nor does it have any boundaries. To me, that's scary. Society controls science in a sense that "anything goes", when science should really be helping the people who need it. The responsiblility lacking, promiscuous crowd controls the direction that science has taken, and it's all politics, and an excuse to avoid moral standards.

We have this assumption that Science is always right, regardless of what scripture tells us.

I'm a scientist and I honestly have no clue at all what you're talking about here. :|
 
Macfistowannabe said:
I don't believe in science playing God.

And I don't believe in god.

I also don't believe in science as the be all and end all either.

So where does that leave me?


Eh. Whatever. I agree with joyfulgirl's comment: it's just very very difficult to have this discussion when it keeps coming back to the Bible.

So that's it for me. Have fun guys. :wave:
 
anitram said:


I'm a scientist and I honestly have no clue at all what you're talking about here. :|
Here's an example - and most of you are going to HATE ME for it, but here's what mad science has done to our moral standards:

It has caused America's Abortion Holocaust, killing over 35 million babies in this country alone, due to a parental lack of responsibility and the worship of Science. It has literally turned the women's womb into a concentration camp. This my friends is where I draw the line on science.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Here's an example - and most of you are going to HATE ME for it, but here's what mad science has done to our moral standards:

It has caused America's Abortion Holocaust, killing over 35 million babies in this country alone, due to a parental lack of responsibility and the worship of Science. It has literally turned the women's womb into a concentration camp. This my friends is where I draw the line on science.

Science has nothing to do with this. Their were abortions being performed before doctors were performing them. And to compare abortion to the holocaust is just discusting. Will you please stop.

And no this is not hate, for I hate no one. But not knowing what you are talking about is a very dangerous weapon.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Science has nothing to do with this. Their were abortions being performed before doctors were performing them. And to compare abortion to the holocaust is just discusting. Will you please stop.

And no this is not hate, for I hate no one. But not knowing what you are talking about is a very dangerous weapon.
Abortion is disgusting. :tsk:
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Abortion is disgusting. :tsk:

Ok that's your opinion but it doesn't dispell science.

I don't think anyone here is going to say abortion is beautiful or even good. But some belive it has to be a choice given to women in order to save lives and maintain. But abortion is not the issue. You are trying to make some crazy point where science is trying to debunk God. That's simply not true. Some use science to justify God doesn't exist, but other use science in coexistence.

It sounds like you are trying to dismiss it totally. If the Bible says dinosaurs don't exist then those bones are fake. That's what it sounds like to me.
 
Um, maybe I'm too U2-ish, but isn't Miracle Drug all about how faith, love, and hope can easily blend in science. All you bible scholars, reread what edge sings in that song and it's impact.
"Why is it God and science can't co-exist?"BonoVoxSupastar
asked. Thank ya...couldn't have articulated the point better
 
U brought the Joy!

JoyfulGirl said:
Gay Christians believe they already have Jesus's love. What we owe the Gay community is not Jesus's love, but the same respect and civil liberties the rest of us enjoy. Truth without love isn't truth at all and I fail to see the love in denying gays the rights everyone else has.

The Girl is full of Joy -- and reality check!

If we can get off "Science Class" and get back to the actual Gay rights issue, let's take a break and see some photos of the New York City Gay Pride Parade, traditionally led by the famous STONEWALL Rebellion Veterans' Association with the Mayor of NYC:

www.STONEWALLvets.org/parade/SW-35.htm
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Ok that's your opinion but it doesn't dispell science.

I don't think anyone here is going to say abortion is beautiful or even good. But some belive it has to be a choice given to women in order to save lives and maintain. But abortion is not the issue. You are trying to make some crazy point where science is trying to debunk God. That's simply not true. Some use science to justify God doesn't exist, but other use science in coexistence.

It sounds like you are trying to dismiss it totally. If the Bible says dinosaurs don't exist then those bones are fake. That's what it sounds like to me.
I am willing to admit that most republicans will not take the same extreme as I do. It is a sensative subject matter, but being called anti-choice for my consciencious objection to the practice is where I draw the line. The anti-choice crowd are the terrorists who don't want us to live at all. Period.

Personally, I feel that sucking the brains out of an unborn is not the American dream, nor is it the purpose for science. I also feel that it's comparably as degrading to human life as the Holocaust.

If God is in fact pro-choice, he will have the final word in the matter. I believe that science and God can coexist when people have boundaries and a sense of morality. As much as I bash mad science, I believe in righteous science, but I also believe we could've left mad science behind years ago.

My general problem is that science has become God to many people in this country, and they're absolute on scientific philosophy, such as evolution. I'm deeply skeptical to anyone who believes that I have the moral values of a monkey, or say that my ancestors were nothing but monkeys. Do I stand alone?
 
blueyedpoet said:
How does evolution mean you have the morals of a monkey?
Interesting question, and I will try to answer it accordingly.

I believe there are certain things about Darwin's theory that are in fact true, such as things might change according to their environment. Obviously though, when you sit right by an active volcano for 20 years, you're going to get hot. But that's not science, that's common sense.

But to say we came from apes is not only unbiblical, it's also unproven. Darwin is hailed as a god in our society for whatever reason. He sure wasn't right about everything. He said that smaller plants were simple celled. Now that we have righteous science, we discovered these small plants were complicated, with many cells. When mad science tells me that my ancestors were apes, that is bogus! This scientific "theory" is no greater than a philosophy that's worldly and most importantly, false.

I find evolution degrading to morality because humans are superior to the rest of the animals, and God gave us that privilage. Look at your family for a second. Do your older ancestors look any more like monkeys than you do? Humans were created in the image of God, and we have a few of his qualities, too. We are creative, artistic, and have a sense of purpose.

To defend my claim, if we were somehow almost impossibly created by some big bang baloney, arriving on planet earth, the only living, breathing planet that I know of so far, and... we were apes. How does this make us - the "intellectuals" smarter than what we were? What does Darwin say about our morality if he claimed we were apes? He is basically saying our lives are meaningless, that we should go ahead and get every STD out there, because we have no morals, and we should live by the moral standards of an ape! Hey everybody, let's act like apes, since according to Darwin, all our ancestors did was EAT BANANAS!

I for one believe we were created, not "big-banged" onto this planet that has the right temperature for us to survive for a lifetime. How can this be out of chance? The "chance" of this actually happening is less than one percent!
 
Macfistowannabe said:




#1: I've found that atheists are far more likely to be abusive, and many of them act immorally in front of their own kids. Take reality TV for example. They show the kind of behavior around kids that turns them into snobs when they grow up.

This doesn't apply to all of them, but some of them give me a bad impression.

#2: They can become god-fearing when they have the will to turn to God for help, and I've heard many stories about former gays who have turned their lives around.

No lie, I saw two different white folks pulled over yesterday for breaking traffic laws. I admit, I live downtown so I’ve seen a lot of them. But I've found white folks to be far more likely to break traffic laws. That doesn't apply to all of them, but some of them give me a bad impression. Take rich white folks for example, they show the kind of behavior around kids that turns them into snobs when they grow up. But they can become god-fearing when they have the will to turn to God for help (about their obvious traffic and snobbish problems), and I've heard many stories about former white traffic law violators and snobs who have turned their lives around.

:heart: God is not in a box :heart:
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Homosexuality is not something that every gay person is born with. Our teen girls for example choose to experiment with the same sex out of peer pressure. Being black is something that you should be proud of, although every black was born that way, not EVERY gay, bi, transgender, etc.

Heterosexuality is not something that every straight person is born with. Our teen girls for example choose to experiment with the opposite sex out of peer pressure. No :censored:? :)
 
datatyme said:


Take rich white folks for example, they show the kind of behavior around kids that turns them into snobs when they grow up.
I couldn't agree more, but wealth doesn't always result in snobby kids. However, I won't ignore the idea that money often makes people think they have it all. I think that in a reasonable family that just so happens to be wealthy, the money could go towards college, a car to drive, a future home, and to charity.
 
datatyme said:


Heterosexuality is not something that every straight person is born with. Our teen girls for example choose to experiment with the opposite sex out of peer pressure. No :censored:? :)
I can't be certain, but I'm willing to agree with you. These girls who might think (or know) that they're attracted to the same sex will most likely get peer pressure to go for the opposite sex. Although this is a contradiction, it will probably make sense to 95% of the people reading.
 
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Your explanation of evolution is funny, but your blindness to the fact that someone is making fun of your unfounded generalizations is hilarious.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Your explanation of evolution is funny, but your blindness to the fact that someone is making fun of your unfounded generalizations is hilarious.
Let's see you explain it better.
 
Macfistowannabe said:

It has caused America's Abortion Holocaust,

Saying that science has caused an abortion "holocaust" is just beyond offensive and the debate for me has thus ended right here.

Plenty of people had abortions with coat hangers and various herbs long before there was anything called high science.

This argument is total bullshit.
 
Your explanation of evolution is funny, but your blindness to the fact that someone is making fun of your unfounded generalizations is hilarious.

You guys are all about laughing at each other (not in a good way) in this thread now?
 
First of all, thanks for everyone who managed to keep it together for an awful long time in this thread. Not too bad--24 pages.

But since the thread has now derailed and cools are being respectively lost, I think it's time to give the topic a rest now.

Ciao until the next gay marriage thread--which is, of course, inevitable.
 
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