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Old 11-04-2004, 10:17 AM   #16
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Originally posted by dandy


there are so many pressing issues that deserve our attention, and this is not one of them. the state should stay out of people's private lives rather than discriminate against and exclude people who they deem to be *different*. we're all just human beings who want to find love and be happy, and the state has no business trying to regulate this.
Isn't marriage entirely about the state paying special attention to people's private lives?

Your post belongs in the "repeal sodomy laws" thread, not in the "support gay marriage" thread.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:20 AM   #17
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I don't know. It's such a hard issue.

I am LDS, and I believe being homosexual is a sin. BUT, most religious people are NOT bigots. I'm not a bigot, and I, in a way, think it's wrong that this issue was brought up. In a way, it makes me very sad.

This is also why I'm proud to be Utahn, because unlike all the other states, more Utahns voted for Bush than voted for this amendment. Therefore, it shows that many Utahns were thinking twice about this, uncomfortable with it, and still are, even the ones who voted for it. We don't think it was necessary or necessarily right.

I think a lot of people just didn't really know what to do. They knew it was important, but, really, didn't know how to go about it, whether to vote or not.

I know my mom asked me what I thought about it, if we should vote yes. We may believe homosexuality is a sin, but we are good people and are not bigots, and we really didn't know what this really implied. So, I think a lot of Utahns just went with what they believe, but malice is not in their hearts.

Still, it's not over. We'll get it all straightened out in the end.
U2Traveller,
Maybe we can have a cup of coffee sometime together?

db9
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Isn't marriage entirely about the state paying special attention to people's private lives?

Your post belongs in the "repeal sodomy laws" thread, not in the "support gay marriage" thread.
True...the state is involved in straight marriages, too.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Isn't marriage entirely about the state paying special attention to people's private lives?

Your post belongs in the "repeal sodomy laws" thread, not in the "support gay marriage" thread.
i don't see how you can have one without the other--repealing sodomy laws is directly related to supporting gay marriage (in my opinion at least). that's not what i was getting at, though.

maybe i wasn't clear enough in my first post, so let me try this again. i strongly support gay marriage, and i think it's a huge step backwards that these 11 states voted to ban it. gay people are human beings, many of whom fall in love and want to live as a family unit, to be entitled to the same benefits as other *socially/religously/legally/etc. accepted* married couples. i have no problem with this concept. denying gay couples the right to marry is discrimination--it's saying that these relationships aren't legitimate or worthy of equal respect (based on the fact that homosexuality is *abnormal*, immoral, contributing to the deingration of society, etc. etc.) and i don't think this is the state's business.

i guess my real beef is with the antiquated definition of marriage that people cling so tightly to. more and more relationships fall outside the scope of this definition and i think it's time we reconsider the concepts of 'marriage' and 'family unit'.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by dandy


i don't see how you can have one without the other--repealing sodomy laws is directly related to supporting gay marriage (in my opinion at least). that's not what i was getting at, though.

maybe i wasn't clear enough in my first post, so let me try this again. i strongly support gay marriage, and i think it's a huge step backwards that these 11 states voted to ban it. gay people are human beings, many of whom fall in love and want to live as a family unit, to be entitled to the same benefits as other *socially/religously/legally/etc. accepted* married couples. i have no problem with this concept. denying gay couples the right to marry is discrimination--it's saying that these relationships aren't legitimate or worthy of equal respect (based on the fact that homosexuality is *abnormal*, immoral, contributing to the deingration of society, etc. etc.) and i don't think this is the state's business.

i guess my real beef is with the antiquated definition of marriage that people cling so tightly to. more and more relationships fall outside the scope of this definition and i think it's time we reconsider the concepts of 'marriage' and 'family unit'.
I'm sorry...but some people who are NOT bigots think about what God wants. If he came out and said, yeah, homosexuality is fine...believe me, this would not be an issue. Some religious people would lose their religion, but that's their problem, and yes, those few truly are bigots.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:58 AM   #21
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bigots think about what God wants.

we can agree
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:02 AM   #22
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Originally posted by deep



we can agree
I didn't say that and you know it.

That is bigoted to say that religious people are all bigots. That's not true. I bet you that if God told religious people that homosexuality is alright, some would definitely spurn God (because they ARE bigots), but many would say, alright. And I think many would be relieved.

Where would I fall into that mix? I'd be relieved that the issue was over, and I'd have no prob if it was OK.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:05 AM   #23
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any one can say God said this or that

to support THEIR agenda.


The bigots did in concerning "race relations"

Islamist use this argument.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:24 AM   #24
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This is why Christians should stick to the Bible instead of vague statements based about "God".
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:41 AM   #25
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Can someone enlighten me on what the bible says about homosexuality? What did Jesus say about homosexuality? I don't recall him ever saying anything negative about it, or saying it was a sin. I am just curious to know the facts.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:49 AM   #26
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Depends on if you only want to read the "red letters" or the whole thing.

The issue really isn't about what God says - you can't argue with Him.

The issue is what are you going to do about it. Demonizing homosexuality is a cheap (and wrong) way of ignoring your own sins.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:52 AM   #27
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i think it's interesting how people (esp. fundamental christians) take from the torah what is useful for their current agenda and discard the rest.

i mean, let's look at leviticus shall we?

A man who lies with a man...shall be put to death, their blood is upon themselves. (Leviticus 20:13)

so obviously most sane people wouldn't accept the slaughter of homosexuals; we'll just leave the death part out but keep the moral principle. we can just ostricize them rather than lynch them. pay no mind to the fact that jesus never once mentioned homosexuality in his ministry (despite the title "christian"). i'm pretty sure he stuck to love and brotherhood.

why don't christians adhere to all of the laws of moses if they insist on maintaining that homosexuality is evil? you can't pick and choose which laws are still applicable and leave the rest out because they are inconvenient. where's the consistency in that?
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:08 PM   #28
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Everyone should read this article by Jonah Goldberg. Right now.

http://www.nationalreview.com/goldbe...berg070103.asp
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:10 PM   #29
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I don't particularly care for politics. I never really get involved. (I find this forum rather frightening sometimes. ) But this... this... Ugh.

Ridiculous. Awful. Ugh.

And what's up with marriage vs. civil union? I mean, my dad's was raised Christian and my mom was raised a Jew. They didn't have a religious ceremony at their wedding, for obvious reasons. Does that mean I'm a child of a civil union? Are my parents not married?? Explain this to me.

I have trouble dealing with people who oppose gay marriage. Sorry. I'll shut up. Huh, Imagine's on the radio. And the world will live as one? Keep dreaming, John. It doesn't look like it's happening any time soon.

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Old 11-04-2004, 12:22 PM   #30
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I follow a very good religion, VERY upstanding, and we believe homosexuality is wrong. It's not based on some agenda or what we pick and choose to believe. We are not bigots. We also think polygamy is wrong because we have been told it is taken away from the earth again. It's totally up to God. Yes, some people DO get revelation. Some people ARE led by prophecy. We are. We have prophets and God DOES lead His church through them.

We are NOT bigots. We are very good people. I have nothing against homosexual people. They still can live as they choose and we don't bother them.

Many here are highly uncomfortable with that having been on the ballot. Frankly, I don't see why it was, why it was necessary, and frankly, it sort of pisses me off, and I'm LDS. The other side just didn't get their argument out there good enough, and I don't know why they didn't try.
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