nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Se7en said:
The Biblical view of homosexuality crosses both Old and New Testament. With multiple references, it is hard to dismiss a concept as no longer applying.
11 states vote on gay marriage
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The Biblical view of homosexuality crosses both Old and New Testament. With multiple references, it is hard to dismiss a concept as no longer applying.
beau2ifulday
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
It actually horrifies me that some people are so hostile to the gay marriage issue. I'm in full support of it, and the idea of such discrimination against any one group concerns me. But, dare I say, it is something that will eventually be introduced. It might not be this year, or maybe not next year, but it's inevitible.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Now that we've started to cross this line here in the U.S. What happens with the other "sins"(I put this in quotes because no one has ever convinced me that homosexuality is)? Adultery is a sin, one I believe almost all people of religion or even outside of religion believe. Should we assign punishment maybe jailtime, or maybe we can make it so they can't have sex again, you know take away their rights.
What about this one? Since we are moving closer and closer to fundamentalism what if someone decides to ammend the constitution to state that no one can practice a religion outside the Judeo-Christian beliefs. I mean I know several "Christians" that belive this is a sin. They say it says so in the Bible so why not deny them rights? How is this any different than banning the rights of homosexuals?
Doesn't seem consistent to me. Oh well I'm sure it's not just discrimination because we don't do that in America, can't be hate...
What about this one? Since we are moving closer and closer to fundamentalism what if someone decides to ammend the constitution to state that no one can practice a religion outside the Judeo-Christian beliefs. I mean I know several "Christians" that belive this is a sin. They say it says so in the Bible so why not deny them rights? How is this any different than banning the rights of homosexuals?
Doesn't seem consistent to me. Oh well I'm sure it's not just discrimination because we don't do that in America, can't be hate...
tackleberry
War Child
nbcrusader said:
I am curious to know where in the new testament it says that Homosexuality is a sin?
It doesn't really matter what the Bible, or any "bible" for that matter, says about Homosexuality. Marriage is "not" a religious bond all of the time. I mean you don't have to be "religious" to be married, obviously.
So, I don't even see why religion is even a factor in this debate. In a perfect world, it would not be. Sure, the Catholic Church, for example, could not allow Homosexuals to be married in their church. That's fine. But not the states, and certaily not the federal government. What right do they have in saying that a marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman? What "law" are they following?
I don't know....
sharky
New Yorker
I just have a problem with the whole "God says so" argument on this one. You can believe anything you want to believe based on God, but this is not a Christian nation -- this is a free nation with no state mandated religion. What gives you a right to decide what is morally correct for the rest of the country including those who are not your religion? What right do you have to tell an agnostic gay couple they can't marry? How exactly does allowing gay men to marry harm you and your church? No one who supports these bans can support them without God?
U2Traveller
Acrobat
sharky said:
Some people just fear God more than man, you know? That's not necessarily a bad thing...and I don't think they're telling people anything. They voted, you voted, we all vote. We all express what we believe that way.
Sure, and some people probably DID support the amendments without God.
I don't see your point.
P.S. all the amendment was in Utah was to make the wording in our state constitution clearer.
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nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
sharky said:
Do I not have a right to decide what is morally right and base my vote on what I decide is morally right?
The more people scream "you voted wrong" - the further away you drive them.
mellyinsf
The Fly
I was increadbly depressed to see that 11 states voted in such a matter. What happend to everyone is equal? Who cares who has sex with who, it DOESN'T EFFECT YOU. Why are we going back to the days of slavery, one person being better than another. Why should your religious beliefs effect what others do in their own personal lives. I can't believe we all live in the same country
U2Traveller
Acrobat
nbcrusader said:
Yep. What's hard for those who scream, though, is to accept the fact, though, that even if they are civil they still won't vote the way you want. That is very hard for some people to take, so then they opt to scream anyway.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
mellyinsf said:
This is your perspective, and not a very bright one. I prefer to see it as a chance for things to be worked out.
mellyinsf
The Fly
work what out? Are you waiting for God to change his opinion?U2Traveller said:
U2Traveller
Acrobat
mellyinsf said:
Or, for people to just be able to work things out.
mellyinsf
The Fly
Untill then let's just all make it illegal for two people who love each other to participate in what to others is a right.U2Traveller said:
Or, for people to just be able to work things out.
sharky
New Yorker
nbcrusader said:
Yes, but here in the U.S., you must also base your vote on what's right for all Americans, not just the Christian Americans. Jesus said in the Bible we must love thy neighbor. Jesus never said "Gays are going to hell." And really, what harm does it do to you personally if some guy down the street marrys another guy? It's not going to turn you gay.
Back in the 1960's there was a case before the Supreme Court called Love vs. Virginia. A law in Virginia stated that you couldn't marry someone of a different race. They based the law on the fact that the Bible, according to them, supported the separation of the races not only in marriage but also in everyday law. This is how the South supported the Jim Crow laws. The Supreme Court struck down the marriage ban, saying it was unconstitutional and that Love, a black man, had the right to marry regardless of race, in this case his white wife. Here we are fifty years later. Few people would say interracial marriage is wrong, no one would put a ban to interracial marriage on a state-wide ballot.
Now replace "black" and "white" in the Love case with "gay" and "gay". What's the fundamental difference between the two cases?
If we start with gays, when are we going to stop? What's next? You can't marry someone of a different religion? Because I'm Catholic and I'm marrying a Jew next year and the government has no right to tell me who I can or can't marry. Why should gender be a factor?
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speedracer
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
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sharky said:
Well, we've already prevented incestuous couples from marrying, even if they're menopausal or gay (precluding the possibility of giving birth to defomed kids).
So tell me again why it's so horrible that gays can get married in Massachusetts but not Ohio?
U2Traveller
Acrobat
mellyinsf said:
It was already illegal in Utah. They are just going to make the language clearer.
If they want to change that, well, they've got a lot of work to do.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
sharky said:
When was this requirement established? Stop and take a look at your suggestion. The freedom to vote is just that - the freedom to vote. If someone wants to vote for only women - that is there right. The minute you begin to infringe on this, you have a whole new problem.
sharky said:
Jesus said only those who reject Him will go to Hell. How people may accept or reject Jesus is between the individual and the Lord.
sharky said:
The fundamental different as of today is that race is beyond ones control. There is a difference of opinion regarding sexual preference. Also, the underlying law used in the decision plays an important part in your analogy.
sharky
New Yorker
nbcrusader said:
If its between the individual and the Lord, what say do you have in whether it is sinful for them to marry? You don't get to judge. Only God can do that.
As for the law itself, Jesus said "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's." The Guy was preaching the separation of church and state long before our country was established.
The fundamental different as of today is that race is beyond ones control. There is a difference of opinion regarding sexual preference. Also, the underlying law used in the decision plays an important part in your analogy. [/QUOTE]
So Dick Cheney's daughter choose to be gay to rebel against her father's Republican upbringing? Why would anyone choose to live a lifestyle that would cause them to be persecuted or cause them to be beaten and left to die on the side of a road?
We'll just have to accept we're playing different cards. You're hoping God didn't make them that way so you're not persecuting a creation of God. I'm hoping God wants me to not judge lest ye be judged.
mellyinsf
The Fly
so what exactly are we waiting to work out?U2Traveller said:
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
sharky said:
I am not the judge, but believers are called to keep account of each other. It is perfectly alright to show another where their actions contradict Scripture.
sharky said:
Take that verse in context and you will see Jesus is calling His followers to submit to their government - not a call for separation.
sharky said:
I am glad you raised this important point. We are all created in the image of God. We are His image bearers. We have no right to hate what He has created.
Theologically speaking, we cannot turn and say "I am free from what God commands". We cannot, in essense, blame God for what we do.
mellyinsf
The Fly
nbcrusader said:
I do not think of myself as a piece of foam floating in the ocean. Wherever the next wave may take me. I take accountability for my actions and so should everyone else. In this sense I find this religion disturbing. If your god says no good to homosexuality, why are their so many who participate? Why would God punish thier lives like this?
U2Traveller
Acrobat
mellyinsf said:
What's right and wrong, I guess.
mellyinsf
The Fly
OK That is the first thing I have ever agreed with you about. Time will tell, I really believe this.U2Traveller said:
U2Traveller
Acrobat
P.S. Whoever said this...people in America are required to vote for what's best for everyone in America...is wrong. I think that would be quite impossible, actually. That's why you have to vote for yourself and the majority wins.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nbcrusader said:
Here is another question I'll ask, but I know it too will probably go unanswered like my others in here
but here it goes.If Jesus is calling you to submit to your government is that only governments of Judeo-Christian countries or all over? What if my country ask me to opress other humans, lock away the innocent, deny his children rights?
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
BonoVoxSupastar said:Here is another question I'll ask, but I know it too will probably go unanswered like my others in here
If Jesus is calling you to submit to your government is that only governments of Judeo-Christian countries or all over? What if my country ask me to opress other humans, lock away the innocent, deny his children rights?
I think you will find your answer in the passage. Jesus was not refering to a Judeo-Christian government (Rome).
No where do I see this command as calling us to sin against God.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
mellyinsf said:
God punishes all sin. We are all sinners. We all deserve punishment. It is wrong to grade or rank sin.
Thankfully, Jesus paid the price for our sin. Grace is free. Accept God's gift.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
Sin is sin, for sure, but some sins are worse than others...and some are even unforgivable. And you are saved by grace only after all you can do.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
The only unforgivable sin is the rejection of God. Everything else is the same. You are on dangerous turf when you start to rank sins.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nbcrusader said:
Exactly
But if your government is wrong?
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