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Old 11-15-2004, 05:17 PM   #241
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amen to that.

What about the whole male and female thing?
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Old 11-15-2004, 06:15 PM   #242
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
amen to that.

What about the whole male and female thing?
Well I won't join you in the amen.

As for the male-female thing...he states one thing so other scenarios must be a sin? I don't believe in those types of leaps of logic.
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Old 11-15-2004, 06:19 PM   #243
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Well I won't join you in the amen.

As for the male-female thing...he states one thing so other scenarios must be a sin? I don't believe in those types of leaps of logic
You won't join me in saying that adultery is a bad thing? Ok.

Leap in logic? Jesus said

Quote:
Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' {5} and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
You see know significance in what Jesus is saying here?
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:47 PM   #244
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Originally posted by MadelynIris


You won't join me in saying that adultery is a bad thing? Ok.
I'm a divorcee who didn't have any control of the situation and I get tired of the judgement cast upon people without knowing every side of the story.

Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris


Leap in logic? Jesus said

You see know significance in what Jesus is saying here?
I do not see Jesus saying that a man and a man or a woman and woman is a sin. It says man and woman will marry, but we're assuming that anything else would be a sin. You are filling in the blanks. Name one other sin that is derived by filling in the blanks and not specifically stated by God or Jesus in the Bible?
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:14 AM   #245
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Right-on from a good Shark!

Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
[B]... What say do you have in whether it is sinful for them to marry? You don't get to judge. Only God can do that.

The fundamental different as of today is that race is beyond one's control. There is a difference of opinion regarding sexual preference.
Well said and sensibly thought, Sharky!

P.S. When MARY CHENEY was born Gay, her father was a Democrat! Same with RON REAGAN, Jr., and so many others.
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Old 11-16-2004, 05:01 AM   #246
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In my country gays are allowed to get married in a civil clerk's office (is that what you call it???). There aren't a lot of churches that will marry gays, but that's fine. Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, so if the christian church is agains gay marriages they shouldn't marry gays. I think for this country (with a big percentage of Christians) this is the best solution. Of course there are people that still oppose it and there are people that think it should be taken further, but the majority of the people is happy with the way it goes.
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Old 11-16-2004, 06:23 AM   #247
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I've heard different methods of dismissing the different passages - but there has been no consistent, principled method of explaining away these passages.
My point, NBC, about the "silence in church" or hair texts is that, while you and I don't take this view, historically and in some places currently, they ARE read this way (I actually had a women tell me once that based on those texts and the "submission" texts, women shouldn't run for elected office ). It was relevant to my point about how conservatives understand most scripture in context of the Bible itself and in the context of history.

That is my "consistent, principled" method of hermenutics: understanding the historical context. You choose (rightly in my view) to read the texts I referred to as being about orderly worship, rather than as something to be taken literally, because of the context surrounding them. Why not the texts on homosexuality? I still have not heard a rationale for that.

Ok, time for Sherry to start getting serious about her finals.


sd
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:20 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dutch Partygirl
In my country gays are allowed to get married in a civil clerk's office (is that what you call it???). There aren't a lot of churches that will marry gays, but that's fine. Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, so if the christian church is agains gay marriages they shouldn't marry gays. I think for this country (with a big percentage of Christians) this is the best solution. Of course there are people that still oppose it and there are people that think it should be taken further, but the majority of the people is happy with the way it goes.


that's for the Netherlands, for being just a generally great country. i'm a big fan, and love visiting.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:48 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
That is my "consistent, principled" method of hermenutics: understanding the historical context. You choose (rightly in my view) to read the texts I referred to as being about orderly worship, rather than as something to be taken literally, because of the context surrounding them. Why not the texts on homosexuality? I still have not heard a rationale for that.
We too have felt the effects of those who take passages of Scripture as rules instead of precepts. Specifically over my wife leading a bible study for 300 women - in their view this was wrong and they ended a 10-year friendship over it.

To the issuse at hand, looking at Scripture only through a historical context filter may result erroneous interpretations. The Gospel message could potentially be dismissed.

When we apply a historical analysis to references to sexual sins, I doubt we get a different result. There are some references to sexual acts as part of pagan temple worship, but that is not consistently the case. Repeated references to pornea (sex outside marriage) for example encompass a wider view that certain behaviors were wrong at any time.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:51 AM   #250
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Thanks Irvine! At the moment the Netherlands is not that great with the aftermath of the murder of Theo van Gogh. People are attacking muslim schools and churches which is very frightning.

Have you been here often? Where?
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Old 11-16-2004, 08:21 AM   #251
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This bit of humor which someone just sent me seems fitting--you may have seen it before:

Dear President Bush,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said, "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man and a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may ! not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though Lev. 19 expressly forbids this: 27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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Old 11-16-2004, 08:52 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dutch Partygirl
Thanks Irvine! At the moment the Netherlands is not that great with the aftermath of the murder of Theo van Gogh. People are attacking muslim schools and churches which is very frightning.

Have you been here often? Where?

i lived in Belgium for a while, and would take the train up to Amsterdam almost once a month. i also visited Delft, Rotterdam, and the Hague. Amsterdam is one of my very favorite cities in all of Europe, and for the art and the bridges and the bicycles (not just for the reasons so many young tourists like Amsterdam ... not that i have any objections to all that other stuff).

i also taught at an international school in brussels, and had several students who were Dutch. they were in the ages of 3-6, but i was impressed by their parents, who seemed much more concerned with their child's overall development and happiness in school rather than being focused upon their child starting to read and write (like many of the American and British parents).

generalizations based upon my experiences, i know, but that was one impression i walked away with.

the Van Gough murder is very sad. there was a *very* interesting article in the New York Times about it on Sunday, and the main point of the article was that the Dutch -- who are famously tolerant -- are now in a position of trying to be tolerant of those who are famously intolerant (radical Muslims) and resent the results of Dutch tolerance -- religous plurality, homosexual rights, legalization of drugs, rights of women.

it was very intersting. and i fear Europe is heading for some sort of cultural reckoning with it's large, growing, and -- in some parts -- increasingly radical Muslim population.

Fortuyn also struck me as very interesting as well, but that's a whole other thread of discussion.
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Old 11-16-2004, 11:14 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
This bit of humor which someone just sent me seems fitting--you may have seen it before:

Dear President Bush,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law...
I was amused by your post, but I did find that every single biblical reference is from the Old Testament. My interpretation of the OT is that God is in our face because of our sin. We were separated from God until Jesus was crucified.

Jesus showed the loving side of God by reaching out to social outcasts and transforming them. He was quoted referring to the Old Testament many times. If man was fully responsible for the Old Testament, why would Jesus, the son of God, not point out the "many flaws" in it?
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Old 11-16-2004, 11:50 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
This bit of humor which someone just sent me seems fitting--you may have seen it before:
There may be some who take their theology seriously that would find this offensive, not humorous.

I think we can leave it, however, in the humor category for now as it represents a lack of understanding of Scripture.
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:24 PM   #255
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Irvine: Interesting story! Would love to hear more, but maybe this thread isn't the appropriate place for it...
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