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Old 11-12-2004, 11:40 AM   #211
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Originally posted by Irvine511



so an atheist cannot raise children the "right" way? and gay people cannot be God-fearing?

i don't go to church, though i do believe in god. i also don't fear god. i find the thought of an infinite that i am connected to empowering and awe-inspiring, but i don't fear that. if anything, belief in God strikes me as the opposite of fear.


#1: I've found that atheists are far more likely to be abusive, and many of them act immorally in front of their own kids. Take reality TV for example. They show the kind of behavior around kids that turns them into snobs when they grow up.

This doesn't apply to all of them, but some of them give me a bad impression.

#2: They can become god-fearing when they have the will to turn to God for help, and I've heard many stories about former gays who have turned their lives around.
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Old 11-12-2004, 12:15 PM   #212
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe




#1: I've found that atheists are far more likely to be abusive, and many of them act immorally in front of their own kids. Take reality TV for example. They show the kind of behavior around kids that turns them into snobs when they grow up.

This doesn't apply to all of them, but some of them give me a bad impression.

#2: They can become god-fearing when they have the will to turn to God for help, and I've heard many stories about former gays who have turned their lives around.
#1: you're going to have to offer more than anecdotes and unfounded generalizations to convince anyone. i think lots of people who believe in god watch reality TV as well.

#2: a belief in God can help a gay person lead a life of abstinence, maybe, but it will never turn a homosexual into a heterosexual. the myth of the "ex-gay" has been widely debunked, and these groups are funded by right-wing political groups headed by people like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson. so there's a political motivation to attack the fact -- as understood by modern psychiatry, medicine, and pretty much all homosexuals and most heterosexuals -- that homosexuality is not a choice. and, really, it's sad when society is so hostile to gay people that they are made to feel so ashamed of who they are that they are preyed upon by these "ex-gay" groups.
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Old 11-12-2004, 01:03 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe




#1: I've found that atheists are far more likely to be abusive, and many of them act immorally in front of their own kids. Take reality TV for example. They show the kind of behavior around kids that turns them into snobs when they grow up.

This doesn't apply to all of them, but some of them give me a bad impression.

#2: They can become god-fearing when they have the will to turn to God for help, and I've heard many stories about former gays who have turned their lives around.
Please site your sources!
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Old 11-12-2004, 01:06 PM   #214
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe





And for saying this, I got a lot of criticism, surprisingly.


Many of us disagreed with your statement about parents disliking the idea of having a gay child because we sense you think there is something wrong with being gay. That is very different from what Irvine said, which is that parents might not like the idea of having a gay child because of how difficult it is to be gay in this world.
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Old 11-12-2004, 05:21 PM   #215
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The "success" rate (if you can call it that) of the "ex-gay" movement is pitifully low to begin with--maybe 20 to 30 percent--and that doesn't even count "ex-gays" who "go back" to being gay after months or years.

Maybe it's not the gay people who need to turn their lives around.

This reminds me of the SNL commercial parody for "Homocil"...does anyone remember? "Because...it's YOUR problem, not theirs."
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Old 11-12-2004, 09:36 PM   #216
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A basic fact that will endear ALL of U (except perhaps one), as U are open-minded and have the egalitarian approach:
Gays are produced by heterosexuals! God Bless the heteros. Keep the Gays comin'. "Amen" go right there. We couldn't do it without ya. Thanx!

Visit: www.STONEWALLvets.org
Veterans of the 1969 Gay Stonewall Rebellion!
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Old 11-13-2004, 09:01 AM   #217
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe




#1: I've found that atheists are far more likely to be abusive, and many of them act immorally in front of their own kids. Take reality TV for example. They show the kind of behavior around kids that turns them into snobs when they grow up.

This doesn't apply to all of them, but some of them give me a bad impression.

#2: They can become god-fearing when they have the will to turn to God for help, and I've heard many stories about former gays who have turned their lives around.
Yeah, I really would like to know your sources. Can you quote any reputable research source on it? Just your own personal opinions are no substitute for substantive research. As someone who is a person of faith, I am a practicing Catholic, I'm not sure faith has anything to do with abuse patterns. Some conservatives have been exposed with behavior patterns inconsistent with the things they say to the press. Some people use their religion to hide their faults. I personally do not know anyone who is an abused spouse, but then I'm shy and don't know people that well, generally. However, I know I broke up with my last boyfriend, another Catholic who had abusive behavior patterns. He'd get drunk, call me, and cuss me out like a sailor. Whew! That was a traumatic experience, one that affected me for years. That was 1991, and honestly, to this day I do not trust the guy.
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Old 11-13-2004, 11:39 PM   #218
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"Gays who have turned their lives around"?

Yeah, I "turned my life around" about twenty years ago when I opened my own personnel business -- not in Peoria but right in the heart of Manhattan, New York. "If U can make it here U can make it anywhere." Anyway, it had nothing to do with sexual orientation. Bi the way, the later is not "chosen" out of a cracker jack box.

Being an X-Gay is like an X-White or an X-Black. U are so born! The real "success" rate is about zero. It's not like changing your religion or your underwear -- or, for that matter, your sex!
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Old 11-14-2004, 10:28 AM   #219
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Well said, Dread and Verte!

The thing I don't get about Christians insisting that the Bible condemns homosexuality is that most folks who feel this way are perfectly reasonable and willing to interpret other Scriptures. I doubt most of 'em would say I need to cover my head or keep quiet in Church (out loud, anyway )). And I hear very few folks saying we need to cure and prepare our meat a certain way or take certain precautions to (avert your eyes if you blush easy....) protect semen. It's understood that these texts of Scripture are a part of the historical and cultural time in which they were written. Someone, then, who insists that homosexuality is a sin based on God's Word needs to explain why they interpret these verses literally, without sociohistorical context, and not the others.

A minister I knew in college once, who taught me Christian theology, once gave me some great advice: never trust someone who tells you they're not interpreting Scripture. There is no "neutral" setting.

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I still would love a reply to this from my fellow persons of faith who insist that to be gay is a sin.

SD
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Old 11-14-2004, 11:49 AM   #220
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Originally posted by verte76


I know I broke up with my last boyfriend, another Catholic who had abusive behavior patterns. He'd get drunk, call me, and cuss me out like a sailor. Whew! That was a traumatic experience, one that affected me for years. That was 1991, and honestly, to this day I do not trust the guy.
You probably shouldn't trust him. Not everyone who practices a faith follows it the way they should. Certainly nobody lives their life perfectly, but there are good examples of people of pretty much all faiths and lifestyles, as well as very bad examples. I've seen far more bad examples than good ones, and that's why I try not to flaunt who I am all the time. However, I do believe that certain things are right and wrong, and I'm sure many people won't buy into my opinions. They shouldn't have to. After all, this is the Free Your Mind forum.
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Old 11-14-2004, 01:23 PM   #221
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I still would love a reply to this from my fellow persons of faith who insist that to be gay is a sin
Ok. Are guys generally into the new testament? Meaning, are you down with it?

Are you cool with the all the letters to the various churches by Paul?

Mark

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Old 11-14-2004, 07:39 PM   #222
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling
I still would love a reply to this from my fellow persons of faith who insist that to be gay is a sin.

SD
The best way to interpret Scripture is to compare it with other Scripture. You may wave isolated references to practices that no longer occur today, but there are plenty of references across the Old and New Testament that identify sexual behaviors as sin, including same sex sexual relations.

It really isn't a matter of what it says (Scripture is clear on this point) it is a matter of how you respond.
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:56 PM   #223
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

I'm not saying you should love them any less, but in order to protect my future children from a moral drought, I supported the ban on gay marriage.
OK. I'm not stupid, but I have no idea how the hell gay marriage (or even civil unions which were also included in the referendum passed in this dipshit state) is going to cause a "moral drought." If you, Macfistowannabe, are a moral person, how does that change if two other people get married? I don't get that at all...all I see is a desire to control other people.

It sure seems to me that what you are saying is "I don't mind gay people, I just don't want them to have the same rights I do." Yeah. That's moral.
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Old 11-14-2004, 09:04 PM   #224
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50 years ago, 80% of voters thought it morally wrong for blacks and whites to marry, but a few activist judges changed all that. Marriage wasn’t originally even monogamous, it was polygamous. Adultery was punishable by death, but divorce only required a handwritten letter from a husband (a wife’s opinion didn’t count). Things have changed over the years, and yet they are still the same in some ways. There have always been gay people, and some cultures have been okay with them. The thing is, this is America, and not everyone follows the same religious beliefs so we must respect each other’s beliefs under the law. I respect anyone’s right to deny me marriage in their church, and they should also respect that the church down the street, or the county clerk’s office might feel differently.

Can’t we all just get along?
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Old 11-14-2004, 10:33 PM   #225
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God-fearing.
I think some have spent too much time fearing God that they don't really know who God is anymore.
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