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Old 04-20-2003, 07:55 PM   #16
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


But you're a historian, right? They're cooler than scientists anyday.

Yeah, I'm a historian. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm used to being considered a pain in the .
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:41 AM   #17
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Remember, the way the UN resolutions were written, it was incumbent upon Iraq to prove they did not have weapons of mass destruction, it was never Incumbent on the UN to prove that Iraq had WMD. In addition, Iraq has yet to account for 30,000 Chem/Bio shells, and tens of thousands of liters of Anthrax. Iraq acknowledged to UN weapons inspectors prior to the time they were kicked out in 1998 that they had these things. They have since sayed they destroyed all of this and also destroyed the evidence of the destruction. Sorry, but the dog ate my homework excuse does not cut it. The material or its remains is located somewhere. This stuff does not just vanish into thin air.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:49 AM   #18
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Yes i remember sting, i also remember that a most countries ask for a month exstra for the inspections. We are now 5 weeks later, and there is found nothing. So the USA soldiers and inspectors must be stupid also.
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:19 PM   #19
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Rono,

I know most other countries prefered to have Saddam continue to be in control of Iraq there by, continueing Saddam reign of death and torture on the Iraqi people. The other countries wanted 4-6 months of more useless inspections under the watchful eye of Saddam! What a Joke! The UN inspectors had no power to take anything or find anything as long as Saddam had control of the country. If they had actually found something, Saddam could simply block the UN teams until he had removed the weapons and hid them some place else.

There is a far better chance of finding the unaccounted for hidden Weapons now that Saddam is out of power. In light of what has happened now, the plans and idea's of France and Germany look horribly ineffective and irrelevant.
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Old 04-23-2003, 03:43 AM   #20
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Mr. Blix condemmed the faked "proofs" the US and Great Britain showed the UN.

In a BBC interview Nr. Blix was woried about that the majority of these "facts" and "proofs" US and GB showed about WMDs the UN to justify the war were not solid at all.

As one example he mantioned the 500 Tonns Uran from Niger. " (translated from german TAZ)

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Old 04-26-2003, 03:54 PM   #21
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“Some of my colleagues are virtually certain that there will be some
weapons of mass destruction found, even though they might have to be planted,” said retired CIA intelligence analyst Ray McGovern. He told the AFP that he believes that some amount of banned weapon will be found but not, “by any stretch [that] would justify the charge of a threat against the US or anyone else.”
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Old 04-26-2003, 05:42 PM   #22
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Old 04-26-2003, 09:54 PM   #23
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Klaus,

It was and is not incubment upon the USA or any UN member state to prove that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction! It is incumbent upon Iraq to prove that it does not have weapons of mass destruction! Those are the terms of the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire. Iraq agreed to them. Failure by Iraq to account for ten thousand liters of Anthrax and 30,000 Chemical/Bio capable shells is all the evidence coalition members needed to launch their invasion.

DEEP,

The US military is NOT the Iraqi military! In addition, the UN is already involved in what they do best, delivery of humanitarian supplies and needs. Its best to keep the political part of the UN out, we have seen how that has wrecked such area's as the former Yugoslavia and Iraq itself.
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Old 04-27-2003, 06:28 PM   #24
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Originally posted by STING2
Its best to keep the political part of the UN out, we have seen how that has wrecked such area's as the former Yugoslavia and Iraq itself.
Yugoslavia was a train wreck on wheels long before the UN ever came around. It was an unnatural union of 6 republics with multiple ethnicities and religions which had a history of struggle. It's simplistic and ignorant of history to now stick the UN with all the problems the former republics now face.
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Old 04-27-2003, 07:57 PM   #25
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Originally posted by STING2
Klaus,

It was and is not incubment upon the USA or any UN member state to prove that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction! It is incumbent upon Iraq to prove that it does not have weapons of mass destruction! Those are the terms of the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire. Iraq agreed to them. Failure by Iraq to account for ten thousand liters of Anthrax and 30,000 Chemical/Bio capable shells is all the evidence coalition members needed to launch their invasion.
You're right, it was Iraqs job, but it's not easy to proof that something dosn't exist anymore and that's why the majority of the UN members said that they'd prefer UN inspections to find out if Iraq still has amounts of WMDs to be a threat to other countries.
US/GB obviousley wanted the war for other reasons (like France and USSR wanted the peace for different reasons).
Now we see that most of the facts the Bush administration showed us were either fakes or simply wrong. A statesman with character whould leave his chair for starting a war and finding out that the reasons were false.
Someone without character who wants to "proof" to the public that he was right will fake these facts and someone without character at all will just sit and wait until the world forgets.

If the US would be sure that there are WMDs i'd see no reason for not leaving the weapon inspectors back into the country. Remember what you thought about Saddams reasons years ago for not letting the Weapon inspectors do their job.

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Old 04-28-2003, 01:06 AM   #26
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Klaus,


"but it's not easy to proof that something dosn't exist anymore"

Thats the whole point! 30,000 Chemical/Bio Capable shells do not simply vanish into thin air when their disposed of or destroyed. Understanding what happens to these weapons when their disposed of and destroyed is the key to understanding why there is no such thing as "Something not existing".


Iraq had 10,000 Liters of Anthrax and 30,000 Chemical/Bio capable shells when UN inspectors were forced to leave in 1998. That is a fact that not even the Iraqi's disputed. If Iraq destroyed all 30,000 Chemical/Bio Capable shells between 1998 and 2002 as they claim, they have the responsibility to show the evidence of that destruction. 30,000 shells is an unbelievable amount of metal.

10,000 Liters of Anthrax if disposed of would leave behind plenty of trace elements or residue that investigators could pick and examine.

Disposal of this material is not like a saturday morning cartoon where someone waves a magic wand and "poof", it disappears.

More importantly, any disposal of WMD by Iraq after inspections started was required to be observed and verified. Failure of this in any way shape is a material breach of Iraq's obligations under the Ceacefire Agreement and grounds for military action.

The Weapons Inspectors were withdrawn because that phase of the UN operation was a failure and required the cooperation of the Iraqi government to work. Military enforcement of the resolutions is a new phase and the only alternative the international community had to ensure Saddam was disarmed. In this new military phase, it is the military's responsibility to ensure that Iraq is disarmed. The time for peaceful inspections and peaceful disarmament of Iraq has long since passed.
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Old 04-29-2003, 05:29 AM   #27
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I totaly agree that Iraq couldn't proof that they fullfilled the UN resolutions. (and it was their job to proof it)
But i also think that there weren't enough serious proofs shown to the public which would have justified a war (and lots of UN members thought also this way, not only the permanent members - that's why US didn't like the idea of a UN plenum of all members.

If US were doing their job to enforce UN resolutions it's obscene that they don't let UN inspectors in the iraq now

By the way, even Schwarzkopf said it would be wise to allow un inspectors more time to do their job

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Old 04-29-2003, 06:49 PM   #28
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Klaus,

"But i also think that there weren't enough serious proofs shown to the public which would have justified a war"

Thats the whole point, there does not have to be any!

Iraq's failure to comply with the resolutions is all that is is needed to authorize military action against Iraq. This is clearly laid out in Resolution 678.

"If US were doing their job to enforce UN resolutions it's obscene that they don't let UN inspectors in the iraq now"

It is no longer the job of UN inspectors to disarm Iraq, it is the job of member states involved in the military action to disarm Iraq. The Peaceful disarmament phase is over. Thats part of reason why UN inspectors left prior to the start of the war.

Once its determined that Iraq is in material breach, member states were authorized to use all means necessary to force compliance with the resolutions. Once this happens, the peaceful means of disarmament are over. The situation switches from peaceful disarmament with civilian inspectors to forceful disarmament with the military.

There are many examples of peaceful disarmament from Kazakstan, Ukraine, Belarus, and South Africa. The disarmament did not take more than a year. Disarmament of Iraq was not supposed to take more than a year or two. 12 years was way to long to give Iraq. Peaceful disarmament could never work as long as Saddam was not willing to fully cooperate.
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Old 04-29-2003, 08:15 PM   #29
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and while they go to search for WMDs, I throw a party
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:30 PM   #30
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STING2:

we have discussed several times if the US was authorized by the UN (since there was no attack from Iraq it's the only legal option left) and i told you before that the decison makers in the UN security council said all the time that this resolution shouldn't be missinterpreted as a justification for a war.

And the UN security council has still approved that Blix should search for WMDs in Iraq. There was no new decision in the council that this is search has become obsolete.
The Inspecions were just paused because UN inspecors had to safe their own life because of an US invasion.
Today US stops the UN to continue their inspections.


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