100,000 civilians killed

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bullet1973

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LONDON (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the U.S.-led invasion last year, American public health experts have calculated in a report that estimates there were 100,000 "excess deaths" in 18 months.

The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by U.S. air strikes on towns and cities.

"Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal.

"The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Roberts told Reuters.

The rest of the story can be read on yahoo and elsewhere. It's too early to comment too much on it but if the figure is anywhere nearly accurate then something has gone badly wrong if George W Bush is elected US President next week.
 
Apology to the moderator. What happened was I thought I had lost my original post and when I went back to paste it back in I went to the wrong thread.
 
Since the other thread was closed instead of merged, I 'll repeat what I said there:

With no clear dividing line between insurgant/militant/terrorist and civilian, I have little confidence in what this number represents.

The terrorist plays this to their advantage.
 
najeena said:
Whether the number is correct or not, it represents many, many innocent people. I grieve for their families.

Lets just say it represents many people. Whether they were true civilians or non-uniformed insurgents is unknown.
 
But even that distinction may not be so easy to make. One might think someone is an insurgent when they're not (or, granted, vice versa).

I think najeena is right, though. That's a lot of innocent people no matter what the actual breakdown is. Only God knows.
 
nbcrusader said:


Lets just say it represents many people. Whether they were true civilians or non-uniformed insurgents is unknown.

People can say what they like.

I believe it is tens of thousands.

This type of bombing kills indiscriminately.

Thousands of innocent women and children have been wrongly killed.

Many more have been maimed.


This is a sure way to lose the hearts and minds of people that hated Saddam.
 
Before the invasion, the most common causes of death in Iraq were heart attacks, strokes, and chronic diseases. Afterward, violent death was far ahead of all other causes.

"We were shocked at the magnitude but we're quite sure that the estimate of 100,000 is a conservative estimate," said Dr. Gilbert Burnham of the Johns Hopkins team.

Burnham said the team excluded data about deaths in Fallujah in making their estimate, because that city was the site of unusually intense violence.

In 15 of the 33 communities visited, residents reported violent deaths in their families since the conflict started.

They attributed many of those deaths to attacks by US-led forces, mostly airstrikes, and most of those killed were women and children. The risk of violent death was 58 times higher than before the war, the researchers reported.

The team included researchers from the Johns Hopkins Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies, which has conducted similar mortality studies about North Korea and Congo.
 
Via The Command Post comes this study published in Lancet (free reg) which purports that 100,000 Iraqi have died from violence, most of it caused by Coalition air strikes, since the invasion of Iraq. Needless to say, this study will become an article of faith in certain circles but the study is obviously bogus on its face.

First, even without reading the study, alarm bells should go off. The study purports to show civilian casualties 5 to 6 times higher than any other reputable source. Most other sources put total combined civilian and military deaths from all causes at between 15,000 to 20,000. The Lancet study is a degree of magnitude higher. Why the difference?

Moreover, just rough calculations should call the figure into doubt. 100,000 deaths over roughly a year and a half equates to 183 deaths per day. Seen anything like that on the news? With that many people dying from air strikes every day we would expect to have at least one or two incidents where several hundred or even thousands of people died. Heard of anything like that? In fact, heard of any air strikes at all where more than a couple of dozen people died total?

Where did this suspicious number come from? Bad methodology.

From the summary:

Mistake One:

"A cluster sample survey was undertaken throughout Iraq during September, 2004"

It is bad practice to use a cluster sample for a distribution known to be highly asymmetrical. Since all sources agree that violence in Iraq is highly geographically concentrated, this means a cluster sample has a very high chance of exaggerating the number of deaths. If one or two of your clusters just happen to fall in a contended area it will skew everything. In fact, the study inadvertently suggests that this happened when it points out later that:

"Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters..."

In fact, this suggest that violent deaths were not "widespread" as 18 of the 33 clusters reported zero deaths. if 54% of the clusters had no deaths then all the other deaths occurred in 46% of the clusters. If the deaths in those clusters followed a standard distribution most of the deaths would have occurred in less than 15% of the total clusters.

And bingo we see that:

"Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja"

(They also used a secondary grouping system (page 2, paragraph 3) that would cause further skewing.)

Mistake Two:

"33 clusters of 30 households each were interviewed about household composition, births, and deaths since January, 2002."

Self-reporting in third-world countries is notoriously unreliable. In the guts of the paper (page 3, paragraph 2) they say they tried to get death certificates for at least two deaths for each cluster but they never say how many of the deaths, if any, they actually verified. It is probable that many of the deaths, especially the oddly high number of a deaths of children by violence, never actually occurred.

So we have a sampling method that fails for diverse distributions, at least one tremendously skewed cluster and unverified reports of deaths.

Looking at the raw data they provide doesn't inspire any confidence whatsoever. Table 2 (page 4) shows the actual number of deaths reported. The study recorded 142 post-invasion deaths total with with 73 (51%) due to violence. Of those 73 deaths from violence, 52 occurred in Falluja. That means that all the other 21 deaths occurred in one of the 14 clusters were somebody died, or 1.5 deaths per cluster. Given what we know of the actual combat I am betting that most of the deaths occurred in three or four clusters and the rest had 1 death each. Given the low numbers of samples, one or two fabricated reports of deaths could seriously warp the entire study.

At the very end of the paper (page 7, paragraph 1) they concede that:

"We suspect that a random sample of 33 Iraqi locations is likely to encounter one or a couple of particularly devastated areas. Nonetheless, since 52 of 73 (71%) violent deaths and 53 of 142 (37%) deaths during the conflict occurred in one cluster, it is possible that by extraordinary chance, the survey mortality estimate has been skewed upward. "

Gee, you think? It's almost as if military violence is not randomly distributed across the population of Iraq but is instead intelligently directed at specific areas, rendering a statistical extrapolation of deaths totally useless.

In the next paragraph they admit:

"Removing half the increase in infant deaths and the Falluja data still produces a 37% increase in estimated mortality."

That puts their final numbers just above the high end of the range reported by other sources.

This "peer reviewed study" is a piece of polemical garbage. Everybody is supposed to take away the bumper sticker summary, "Coalition kills 100,000 Iraqi civilians, half of them children," without reading the details. It tries to use crude epidemiological models like those used to study disease and applies them to the conscious infliction of violence by human beings. The result is statistical static.

(Update: Commentator Clashman below points out that the studies "conservative" estimate is actually around 66,000 instead of the 30,000 I had done in my head so the study is actually at least twice of what other sources place as the upper range at around 25,000)

VIA: http://www.chicagoboyz.net/archives/002543.html
 
What I'm saying, though, is that it hardly matters if it's 30,000 or 100,000--either way, that's a huge number of people who died unnecessarily. Even *if* you want to estimate that, I don't know, 50-75% of them were actually civilian insurgents--which is probably a really, really generous estimate--that puts it in the low ballpark of at least 10,000 civilian deaths.

Not exactly chump change. :no:
 
Actually, their 95% confidence range is 8,000-194,000.

link

Since the number of civilians killed must be a nonnegative quantity, and since the lower end of their confidence range is so close to zero, it's very likely that the probability density function for number of civilians killed is non-Gaussian and is instead bottom-heavy. So the best guess for the number of civilians killed is probably much less than 100,000.

The results of this study were published in a medical journal, so it's fair to expect it to be scientifically honest. Claiming that 100,000 is an accurate guess is not scientifically honest.

Leave the grandstanding and abuse of statistics to the politicians.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure that my broader point is being heard: even the very low-end estimates constitute numbers far too large. These people died tragically and unnecessarily, whether there were 8, 8,000, or 8,000,000.
 
paxetaurora said:
I'm not sure that my broader point is being heard: even the very low-end estimates constitute numbers far too large. These people died tragically and unnecessarily, whether there were 8, 8,000, or 8,000,000.

Your broader point is being heard loud and clear and being dismissed.

If you won't make an allowance for any innocent victims during war, then we may as well stop arguing.
 
Well, then, I suppose we might as well stop arguing. ;)

I do think we're at a point where we have to start asking ourselves if any amount of "collateral damage" is acceptable. I believe it is not.

Keep in mind that our enemies in the "War on Terror" believe that the 3,000 lives lost on 9/11 are acceptable "collateral damage." I refuse to share that ground with them.
 
Um, the 3,000 people who died in 9/11 were not "collateral damage". They were intentionally targeted.
 
paxetaurora said:
I'm not sure that my broader point is being heard: even the very low-end estimates constitute numbers far too large. These people died tragically and unnecessarily, whether there were 8, 8,000, or 8,000,000.

Don't worry, your broader point is definitely being heard and your sentiments are very admirable. This is why it makes my blood boil when I hear other people talking about the noble goal of bringing democracy to Iraq. What's the point of having democracy if you're six foot under the ground? Ok, Saddam was a bloody tyrant who murdered his own people. But if u can't provide a proper and viable alternative, which Bush clearly hasn't done, and if u raise people's hopes only to see them dashed, then you should have the balls to admit that u have failed.

Whether it's 100,000 or a quarter of that figure this whole grotesque, bloody mess - which has NOTHING to do with 9/11 - is a damning indictment of Bush and his scumbag government.
 
speedracer said:


Your broader point is being heard loud and clear and being dismissed.

If you won't make an allowance for any innocent victims during war, then we may as well stop arguing.

When you say it's being dismissed I presume u mean it's being dismissed by you personally? I'm sure u don't mean it's being dismissed by everyone who has read it.....even if that's the impression u give.
 
nbcrusader said:


Lets just say it represents many people. Whether they were true civilians or non-uniformed insurgents is unknown.
100.000 insurgents is also not very believable. Anyway, who will know the real numbers when the US government refused to count the Iraq deads at the begin of the war.
 
There is an article about this study in The Economist that addresses some points raised before in this thread:
http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3352814

A_Wanderer said:
Mistake One:

"A cluster sample survey was undertaken throughout Iraq during September, 2004"

It is bad practice to use a cluster sample for a distribution known to be highly asymmetrical. Since all sources agree that violence in Iraq is highly geographically concentrated, this means a cluster sample has a very high chance of exaggerating the number of deaths. If one or two of your clusters just happen to fall in a contended area it will skew everything. In fact, the study inadvertently suggests that this happened when it points out later that:

"Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters..."

In fact, this suggest that violent deaths were not "widespread" as 18 of the 33 clusters reported zero deaths. if 54% of the clusters had no deaths then all the other deaths occurred in 46% of the clusters. If the deaths in those clusters followed a standard distribution most of the deaths would have occurred in less than 15% of the total clusters.

And bingo we see that:

"Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja"

(They also used a secondary grouping system (page 2, paragraph 3) that would cause further skewing.)

While it may be true that 2/3 of all violent deaths were reported in the cluster of Falluja, this is also the exact reason that the results from this cluster were not used in the statistical analysis. So, the number of 100,000 deaths does not use the information of the Falluja cluster. If it did, the result would have been much higher.

Mistake Two:

"33 clusters of 30 households each were interviewed about household composition, births, and deaths since January, 2002."

Self-reporting in third-world countries is notoriously unreliable. In the guts of the paper (page 3, paragraph 2) they say they tried to get death certificates for at least two deaths for each cluster but they never say how many of the deaths, if any, they actually verified. It is probable that many of the deaths, especially the oddly high number of a deaths of children by violence, never actually occurred.

With the chaos that is Iraq today, it's logical that not everyone has a death certificate of someone they last. However, when you have to recall the deaths of your family members, you probably don't need to think hard about it. Various statistics professors have verified the study and they conclude that the methods used are statistically sound.
Furthermore, the method used isn't any different than they use for other public health studies. From The Economist:
The Fallujah data-point highlights how the variable distribution of deaths in a war can make it difficult to make estimates. But Scott Zeger, the head of the department of biostatistics at Johns Hopkins, who performed the statistical analysis in the study, points out that clustered sampling is the rule rather than the exception in public-health studies, and that the patterns of deaths caused by epidemics are also very variable by location.

Marty
 
These were the same civilians that voted for Saddam time and time again, they are not innocent in my eyes. They were put on notice over a year ago to vacate hot-spots and not to associate with insurgents. I'm sure these people were all innocent also and never did anything wrong, ask any prison guard here how many guys in his prison are guilty, he'll tell you none of them are. This is a war to eliminate an enemy. If you stand in front of this mission, you will be dealt with by our leader Bush and our superior military. Within a few short months, Iraq will be well on the way to being a peaceful Christian country. Once Iraq has gone Christian, the Gospel of Jesus will spread throughout the Middle East. The region will be at peace and millions of Arab souls will be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ.

You can be with us or against us, but Christians are done with sitting at the back of the bus. Saddam's sons learned this the hard way, let their fate be a lesson to all who don't shape up and get in line for what is coming their way.
 
GOP_Catholic said:
These were the same civilians that voted for Saddam time and time again, they are not innocent in my eyes. They were put on notice over a year ago to vacate hot-spots and not to associate with insurgents. I'm sure these people were all innocent also and never did anything wrong, ask any prison guard here how many guys in his prison are guilty, he'll tell you none of them are. This is a war to eliminate an enemy. If you stand in front of this mission, you will be dealt with by our leader Bush and our superior military. Within a few short months, Iraq will be well on the way to being a peaceful Christian country. Once Iraq has gone Christian, the Gospel of Jesus will spread throughout the Middle East. The region will be at peace and millions of Arab souls will be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ.

You can be with us or against us, but Christians are done with sitting at the back of the bus. Saddam's sons learned this the hard way, let their fate be a lesson to all who don't shape up and get in line for what is coming their way.

unfortunately i fear that this sort of sentiment is what some of us will have to deal with on a regular basis for the next 4 (or more?!) years.

jesus must be very proud of you.

:(
 
Who is this bloody troll, can a mod answer me, is the IP the same as a regular who is voting, can they stop posting this obscene posts.

GOP_Catholic is a bloody troll, there is no person that could be that inflamatory on purpose, they are really trying to do so.
 
Serenity now.

What kind of brain drain are we experiencing here?
 
:laugh:
"From the point of view of the things I deeply believe in to be right and necessary, Barack Obama is wrong and taking the wicked and evil position on every single one of them.
"And I would simply say to voters of faith and conscience—the Roman Catholics, the black Christians, the evangelicals—I don't see how anyone in good conscience can cast a vote for Barack Obama."
A perfect match
 
GOP_Catholic said:
These were the same civilians that voted for Saddam time and time again, they are not innocent in my eyes. They were put on notice over a year ago to vacate hot-spots and not to associate with insurgents. I'm sure these people were all innocent also and never did anything wrong, ask any prison guard here how many guys in his prison are guilty, he'll tell you none of them are. This is a war to eliminate an enemy. If you stand in front of this mission, you will be dealt with by our leader Bush and our superior military. Within a few short months, Iraq will be well on the way to being a peaceful Christian country. Once Iraq has gone Christian, the Gospel of Jesus will spread throughout the Middle East. The region will be at peace and millions of Arab souls will be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ.

You can be with us or against us, but Christians are done with sitting at the back of the bus. Saddam's sons learned this the hard way, let their fate be a lesson to all who don't shape up and get in line for what is coming their way.

Why do we have to read grossly offensive and repugnant crap like this? Has the moderator nothing to say about this?
 
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