popsadie said:
the thing is...grace says that no one is righteous in the creators eyes...no one is always selfless...no one always chooses a long term good over a short term good....grace says that man owes something he can't pay, but the one wronged(god)..(or the human being choosing to forgive) is choosing to forgo the payment of that debt.
In order to buy into grace, you have to buy into the idea above. If you believe on the other hand that some people are basically pretty good (and thus have no need of grace) then it does become manifestly unfair. The good people get in on the merits of their goodness, while the assholes ride in cackling all the way, on the merits of grace.
I personally agree with popsadie's statement above so I don't have any complaints about grace. I'm grateful for it.
I think what we may be missing is what I believe is the transformative power of grace. I don't see any assholes riding into heaven cackling at how they managed to work the system of grace to get in. Grace, once understood and accepted, changes a person, I believe. If it doesn't, then I don't think you've really accpeted the grace of God, nor do I believe you will WANT to spend an eternity wtih a God who won't let you live in the cruel and self-centered way in which you are accustomed.
I understand the idea that BonoSaint implied of not wanting to see the most brutal human beings--the rapists and murderers and so on-- receive grace at the end no matter who sorry they are for what they did or how changed they've become. But ultimately, I would contend that a refusal to grant grace to some penitents on the grounds that their crimes are just unforgivable would ultimately create a sadder, more painful universe.
And Irvine, on one point I agree with you. Certainly all of this is how we deal with the reality of our impending deaths. The issue isn't so much that we're coping via the hope of grace (or karma or whatever esle) as it is whether we may be right that there is something else beyond this span of 70-90 years (if we're lucky) or if indeed there is no hope at all beyond what we've got in front of us. As long as our beliefs about what may come after POSTIVELY affect what we do with what we KNOW we have--this moment, then I don't see a problem.