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Old 11-08-2007, 11:31 AM   #46
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but if what simply "just is" are mistakes, selfish choices...etc.., then how do you account for forgiveness in human relationships? If we only got what we deserved, we would be an even sorrier lot....
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:58 PM   #47
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I don't understand the question...? Nothing in the idea of karma precludes making unselfish choices or forgiving people who've wronged you. Accumulating karma involves perpetuating a (transcendable) ongoing existential condition--not the bringing down of deserved punishments on oneself in some one-to-one correspondence to specific 'bad' acts.

There are about a dozen different 'major' theories concerning karma, depending on which religion and 'denomination' you're talking about (Dvaita, Advaita, Saiva Siddantha, Visishtadvaita, Bhakti, Nyaya, Theravada, Mahayana, Jainism etc.)--accuracy issues aside, that in itself is one of the biggest problems with talking about it as if it were some universally understood doctrine.
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Old 11-09-2007, 02:10 AM   #48
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^ Deception in advertising... (except that's a little harsh, because Bono probably simply doesn't know enough about Indian thought to know any better)
true enough ... and I am certainly no expert myself! I just find it upsetting sometimes the insistance of comparing different belief systems or philosophies, perhaps in order to make one sound more superior to another.

Although I don't hold any one belief dear, I find all kinds of religions fascinating ... but sometimes it's like some kind of competitive sport!
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Old 11-09-2007, 04:46 AM   #49
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I think the western misunderstanding of karma (what goes around, comes around) is attractive to the powerless because it plays to desire for fairness in a way which grace often does not.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:45 AM   #50
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I think the western misunderstanding of karma (what goes around, comes around) is attractive to the powerless because it plays to desire for fairness in a way which grace often does not.
How so? Grace is for everyone, and you don't even have to do anything good to get it. Seems beyond fair to me.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:55 AM   #51
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One could look at it like that. Or one could look at it that the those who spend a lifetime harming people in one way or another get a free ride, that those who damage are elevated yet again. I have no interest in grace. What a perfect solution for the sociopath and the rest of the predators and the indifferent to cloak themselves in righteousness. Have your cake and eat it too.

God wipes the slate clean and who speaks for the victims?
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Old 11-09-2007, 09:12 AM   #52
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How so? Grace is for everyone, and you don't even have to do anything good to get it. Seems beyond fair to me.
I think BonosSaint is referring to the desire that all decent people share, to see good works rewarded and evil punished. While grace is for all, Christianity also teaches that this is not the only life and that there is a final judgement after our mortal bodies die where everyone will be called to give an account of their earthly life.
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Old 11-09-2007, 09:13 AM   #53
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Christianity also teaches that this is not the only life and that there is a final judgement after our mortal bodies die where everyone will be called to give an account of their earthly life.
I'm a Christian and I believe that one is judged and saved based on grace alone, not the works they did or did not do during their earthly life.
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Old 11-09-2007, 09:55 AM   #54
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I'm a Christian and I believe that one is judged and saved based on grace alone, not the works they did or did not do during their earthly life.
Oh I agree, as far as salvation. We are saved by faith alone. But I believe there are also heavenly rewards and degrees of enjoying His glory in heaven. Suffering is rewarded (Matthew 5:11-12) as is obedience and glorifying God (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

That's how I interpret them anyway.
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:26 AM   #55
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the more i hear about judgment and grace and karma and accountability and good works and heavenly rewards, the more i'm inclined to think that, yes, it is all a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves in order to make ourselves feel better about the fundamental absurdity of the human condition (born to die, cursed with self-awareness).

not saying i'm convinced of anything, but when these things are spelled out to me, it just seems so wacky.

no judgments, just a kind of sad, rainy-friday-morning observation.
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Old 11-09-2007, 11:15 AM   #56
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the more i hear about judgment and grace and karma and accountability and good works and heavenly rewards, the more i'm inclined to think that, yes, it is all a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves in order to make ourselves feel better about the fundamental absurdity of the human condition (born to die, cursed with self-awareness).

not saying i'm convinced of anything, but when these things are spelled out to me, it just seems so wacky.

no judgments, just a kind of sad, rainy-friday-morning observation.
If it helps, there are no sad, rainy-Friday-mornings in heaven. Can't prove that of coarse.

But if you require perspective on "the fundamental absurdity of the human condition" might I suggest this movie:

Is life just a game where we make up the rules
While we're searching for something to say
Or are we just simple spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DNA?
What is life? What is our fate?
Is there Heaven and Hell? Do we reincarnate?
Is mankind evolving or is it too late?

Well tonight here's the "Meaning of Life."
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Old 11-09-2007, 11:19 AM   #57
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Oh I agree, as far as salvation. We are saved by faith alone. But I believe there are also heavenly rewards and degrees of enjoying His glory in heaven. Suffering is rewarded (Matthew 5:11-12) as is obedience and glorifying God (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

That's how I interpret them anyway.
What's the point of heaven if some people are still going to get the shaft while others get everything?

I believe that in the kingdom of God, everyone is equal b/c everyone was created equal, in the image of God. The kingdom of God is about being godly, so it wouldn't matter who did/said/was what.
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Old 11-09-2007, 03:11 PM   #58
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the thing is...grace says that no one is righteous in the creators eyes...no one is always selfless...no one always chooses a long term good over a short term good....grace says that man owes something he can't pay, but the one wronged(god)..(or the human being choosing to forgive) is choosing to forgo the payment of that debt.
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Old 11-10-2007, 09:50 AM   #59
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As a Catholic, I believe that we are saved by both works and faith.
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Old 11-10-2007, 01:28 PM   #60
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I believe that one is judged and saved based on grace alone, not the works they did or did not do during their earthly life.
Why?
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