10 questions to Christians

[Liesje]

I'm pretty black and white when it comes to religion and theology. Either God does not respond to petitionary prayer (at least not in the way we are asking) or he does, and if he does, there MUST be an explanation for who/how/when/why he intervenes for some and not others. A lack of any sort of explanation leads me to believe that God does not intervene on our behalf and asking him to do so is not the true purpose of prayer or talking to God. If the divine Son of God himself prays to God and his request is not fulfilled, what does that say about our chances?

For me, a prayer is not a request, it's a conversation. When you have a conversation with someone, each side always learns something about the other and takes something away from the conversation. Like right now I'm responding to Sean but am I asking him to do something? No. We just like posting back and forth on here because it's interesting and fulfilling to learn more about other people and why they are the way they are. I believe the same is true with regard to one's relationship with God. A true relationship is not just begging and pleading back and forth. You can ask someone why they do something and learn about them and yourself without asking them NOT to do that something or to do something else instead.

When my friend died I learned bitterness and regret, spiritually speaking, but I was going about it the wrong way and figured out my mistakes the hard way.


PS. I believe accepting God's grace through Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation.

 

[coemgen]

This was the verse of the day on my myspace:
1 Timothy 2:1-2
"[Instructions on Worship] I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness."

I think in the case of Christ asking God to "take this cup from me," it shows the human side of Christ. To me, it's a beautiful moment, but you have to consider the rest of that line:
"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Considering who Christ is, he knew the response he'd get. And, of course, it obviously wasn't God's will for anything else to happen. I think that's when it's not answered - when it goes against God's will. I think intercessory prayer is important, regardless of whether it works or not, because it's you revealing your heart to God. Like you said, it's a conversation and part of the relationship. I think in that conversation, we learn God's will and if he sees we're aligned with his will in our prayers, they can change things. "The prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective." He's not a puppet by any means, but like Bono said "All God wants is a willing heart and for us to call out to him. Remember, he's passionate about his will being realized, but he's also passionate about free will for us. If we align ourselves with him, that's when he's willing to act . . . if it's his will. Does that make any sense? That's kind of what came to mind after reading your posts. I'll admit I may be off on that though.

Prayers a more complex thing than one would think. (Just like most relationships, let alone one with God.) I'm hoping to pick up a copy of Philip Yancey's book on prayer: "Prayer - Does it make any difference?" He's such an incredible writer and spiritual journalist, really. It might be worth checking out - I'm sure he addresses some of the issues you've brought up.

 

[Liesje]

coemgen, I don't typically read contemporary books on religion and spirituality b/c typically I get about 5 pages in and want to gag myself with the book, but perhaps I'll give it a try. I'm not a touchy-feely person; I tend to approach theology like a math equation. I'm just not a very spiritual person. Never have been and really don't think I ever will be.

I think in that conversation, we learn God's will and if he sees we're aligned with his will in our prayers, they can change things

See, and I believe that in that conversation, we align our will with God's so that he doesn't have to change anything, b/c his will was right/correct/just to begin with. The conversation changes us, not the future, as we would desire when we don't understand God's will.

 

[coemgen]

I understand where you're coming from, and agree even, but I think our prayers can change things. We don't control God, but he's willing to act on our behalf when we're with him. If we're doing our own thing, he's going to just let that happen, too. That's just how I see it.

 

[BVS]

I understand where you're coming from, and agree even, but I think our prayers can change things. We don't control God, but he's willing to act on our behalf when we're with him. If we're doing our own thing, he's going to just let that happen, too. That's just how I see it.

Be careful with this type of thinking. You can't possibly think that everyone who's praying for help and not receiving it isn't "with him".

 

[coemgen]

No, that wouldn't be consistent with other posts I've made either. Look at my post before my last one. It has to be his will, too. Christ asked "take this cup from me" but he also said "Your will, not mine." It was God's will that things unfolded as they did. And obviously, you can't make the argument that Christ wasn't "with" God.

 

[maycocksean]

No, that wouldn't be consistent with other posts I've made either. Look at my post before my last one. It has to be his will, too. Christ asked "take this cup from me" but he also said "Your will, not mine." It was God's will that things unfolded as they did. And obviously, you can't make the argument that Christ wasn't "with" God.

But the difficulty here is when it's hard to argue that a certain result wouldn't be God's will.

Take the situation with Liesje's friend where she's suffering for months with cancer and God doesn't heal her. To tell her grieving friends and loved ones "Well, I guess it wasn't God's will" would be harsh in the extreme. (Not that I'm suggesting you would do such thing. Sometimes, the "It's God's will" argument can be terribly cruel.)

My answer in regards to why doesn't always answer those kinds of prayers in the affirmative is that "I don't know." I know it's inadequate, but it's no worse (and perhaps a little better) than the response that God doesn't care at all.

 

[Liesje]

Take the situation with Liesje's friend where she's suffering for months with cancer and God doesn't heal her. To tell her grieving friends and loved ones "Well, I guess it wasn't God's will" would be harsh in the extreme.

That's EXACTLY what someone said to our faces at her funeral and I'm STILL steaming over it. See, it's so easy for others to say that when they are totally removed from the situation. I don't believe that I can change the will of God to intervene on my behalf (or someone else's behalf) b/c personally, it's never worked. If I'm only praying for that reason, then it's a total waste of time.

 

[maycocksean]

coemgen, I don't typically read contemporary books on religion and spirituality b/c typically I get about 5 pages in and want to gag myself with the book, but perhaps I'll give it a try.

If you're going to try, Phil Yancey would be the guy.

I'm just not a very spiritual person. Never have been and really don't think I ever will be.

Funny, I feel like I"m not a very religious person. Never have been and really don't think I ever will be.

 

[maycocksean]

Liesje, how do you square the stories of people asking Jesus to heal them and Him doing so with the belief that God doesn't intervene?

Certainly Jesus made it clear that miracles and "answers to prayer" weren't to be the bedrock of what made a person loyal to Him, but yet, He did respond to people's requst for healing. . .

Still thinking abou this. . .will write more later.

 

[coemgen]

But the difficulty here is when it's hard to argue that a certain result wouldn't be God's will.

Take the situation with Liesje's friend where she's suffering for months with cancer and God doesn't heal her. To tell her grieving friends and loved ones "Well, I guess it wasn't God's will" would be harsh in the extreme. (Not that I'm suggesting you would do such thing. Sometimes, the "It's God's will" argument can be terribly cruel.)

My answer in regards to why doesn't always answer those kinds of prayers in the affirmative is that "I don't know." I know it's inadequate, but it's no worse (and perhaps a little better) than the response that God doesn't care at all.

Yeah, I'm talking in general terms here for the sake of discussion, not in terms of a specific situation. You're right, we can't always know God's plan for things. "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer. We can't know what he's up too all the time, he's God. We're not.

 

[yolland]

Funny, I feel like I"m not a very religious person. Never have been and really don't think I ever will be.

Feeling passionate about and devoted to the study and practice of one particular theology is obviously a big part of my life...but as strange as it probably sounds, to a very great extent that's separate to me from being a believer. The former 'feels like home'...the latter simply just is, when it comes down to it. I'm certainly fascinated by comparative theology too, and that kind of discussion certainly has informed and enriched my own theology, both in here and through other routes, which is wonderful. But ultimately it's not about an intellectual 'quest for truth' to me...that's where the 'just is' part enters in, and to me no 'truly accurate' intellectual articulation of that part is possible anyway.

At any rate (and to borrow something BonosSaint said awhile back), I always enjoy and am challenged by how both of you think. Not sure whether that adds up more to warm fuzzies or self-indulgent pretenses at flexibility...lol. It's just a feeling I have.

 

[Liesje]

Liesje, how do you square the stories of people asking Jesus to heal them and Him doing so with the belief that God doesn't intervene?

Certainly Jesus made it clear that miracles and "answers to prayer" weren't to be the bedrock of what made a person loyal to Him, but yet, He did respond to people's requst for healing. . .

Still thinking abou this. . .will write more later.

I would have to think about it more too, but my initial response would be that he was healing them to prove that they are worthy of being heeled and touched by Christ. I'd have to re-read some of the stories, but weren't most of the people Christ heeled and touched the type of people that no one else wanted to associate with? I think the point was something other than if you beg to God long enough, you will get what you want, as long as you are "with" him.

 

[anitram]

this statement has always bothered me a little bit


"Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward; karma simply deals with what is. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

I completely agree.

 

[yolland]

^ Deception in advertising... (except that's a little harsh, because Bono probably simply doesn't know enough about Indian thought to know any better)

 

[popsadie]

but if what simply "just is" are mistakes, selfish choices...etc.., then how do you account for forgiveness in human relationships? If we only got what we deserved, we would be an even sorrier lot....

 

[yolland]

I don't understand the question...? Nothing in the idea of karma precludes making unselfish choices or forgiving people who've wronged you. Accumulating karma involves perpetuating a (transcendable) ongoing existential condition--not the bringing down of deserved punishments on oneself in some one-to-one correspondence to specific 'bad' acts.

There are about a dozen different 'major' theories concerning karma, depending on which religion and 'denomination' you're talking about (Dvaita, Advaita, Saiva Siddantha, Visishtadvaita, Bhakti, Nyaya, Theravada, Mahayana, Jainism etc.)--accuracy issues aside, that in itself is one of the biggest problems with talking about it as if it were some universally understood doctrine.

 

[TranceEnding]

^ Deception in advertising... (except that's a little harsh, because Bono probably simply doesn't know enough about Indian thought to know any better)

true enough ... and I am certainly no expert myself! I just find it upsetting sometimes the insistance of comparing different belief systems or philosophies, perhaps in order to make one sound more superior to another.

Although I don't hold any one belief dear, I find all kinds of religions fascinating ... but sometimes it's like some kind of competitive sport!

 

[BonosSaint]

I think the western misunderstanding of karma (what goes around, comes around) is attractive to the powerless because it plays to desire for fairness in a way which grace often does not.

 

[Liesje]

I think the western misunderstanding of karma (what goes around, comes around) is attractive to the powerless because it plays to desire for fairness in a way which grace often does not.

How so? Grace is for everyone, and you don't even have to do anything good to get it. Seems beyond fair to me.

 

[BonosSaint]

One could look at it like that. Or one could look at it that the those who spend a lifetime harming people in one way or another get a free ride, that those who damage are elevated yet again. I have no interest in grace. What a perfect solution for the sociopath and the rest of the predators and the indifferent to cloak themselves in righteousness. Have your cake and eat it too.

God wipes the slate clean and who speaks for the victims?

 

[INDY500]

How so? Grace is for everyone, and you don't even have to do anything good to get it. Seems beyond fair to me.

I think BonosSaint is referring to the desire that all decent people share, to see good works rewarded and evil punished. While grace is for all, Christianity also teaches that this is not the only life and that there is a final judgement after our mortal bodies die where everyone will be called to give an account of their earthly life.

 

[Liesje]

Christianity also teaches that this is not the only life and that there is a final judgement after our mortal bodies die where everyone will be called to give an account of their earthly life.

I'm a Christian and I believe that one is judged and saved based on grace alone, not the works they did or did not do during their earthly life.

 

[INDY500]

I'm a Christian and I believe that one is judged and saved based on grace alone, not the works they did or did not do during their earthly life.

Oh I agree, as far as salvation. We are saved by faith alone. But I believe there are also heavenly rewards and degrees of enjoying His glory in heaven. Suffering is rewarded (Matthew 5:11-12) as is obedience and glorifying God (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

That's how I interpret them anyway.

 

[Irvine511]

the more i hear about judgment and grace and karma and accountability and good works and heavenly rewards, the more i'm inclined to think that, yes, it is all a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves in order to make ourselves feel better about the fundamental absurdity of the human condition (born to die, cursed with self-awareness).

not saying i'm convinced of anything, but when these things are spelled out to me, it just seems so wacky.

no judgments, just a kind of sad, rainy-friday-morning observation.

 

[INDY500]

the more i hear about judgment and grace and karma and accountability and good works and heavenly rewards, the more i'm inclined to think that, yes, it is all a bunch of stuff we tell ourselves in order to make ourselves feel better about the fundamental absurdity of the human condition (born to die, cursed with self-awareness).

not saying i'm convinced of anything, but when these things are spelled out to me, it just seems so wacky.

no judgments, just a kind of sad, rainy-friday-morning observation.

If it helps, there are no sad, rainy-Friday-mornings in heaven. Can't prove that of coarse.

But if you require perspective on "the fundamental absurdity of the human condition" might I suggest this movie:

Is life just a game where we make up the rules
While we're searching for something to say
Or are we just simple spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DNA?
What is life? What is our fate?
Is there Heaven and Hell? Do we reincarnate?
Is mankind evolving or is it too late?

Well tonight here's the "Meaning of Life."

 

[Liesje]

Oh I agree, as far as salvation. We are saved by faith alone. But I believe there are also heavenly rewards and degrees of enjoying His glory in heaven. Suffering is rewarded (Matthew 5:11-12) as is obedience and glorifying God (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

That's how I interpret them anyway.

What's the point of heaven if some people are still going to get the shaft while others get everything?

I believe that in the kingdom of God, everyone is equal b/c everyone was created equal, in the image of God. The kingdom of God is about being godly, so it wouldn't matter who did/said/was what.

 

[popsadie]

the thing is...grace says that no one is righteous in the creators eyes...no one is always selfless...no one always chooses a long term good over a short term good....grace says that man owes something he can't pay, but the one wronged(god)..(or the human being choosing to forgive) is choosing to forgo the payment of that debt.

 

[verte76]

As a Catholic, I believe that we are saved by both works and faith.

 

[financeguy]

I believe that one is judged and saved based on grace alone, not the works they did or did not do during their earthly life.

Why?