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Old 11-05-2007, 03:20 AM   #16
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Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Expecting more than a couple people to bother watching 20+ minutes of video in order to be able to respond directly is a wee bit unrealistic, especially when you didn't make even the slightest effort to explain in your own words what the import of the videos is, or which topics from them you wished to discuss.
Ask yourself the questions, and If you still think there is a God... Well...

But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:45 AM   #17
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:rollseyes:

i don't believe in God, but these questions always annoyed me. I don't think it helps the Proof" that there is no God by saying 'but why are their sick kids, why are there poor and starving people?'

if i was religious there are plenty of answers for that. Perhaps some people are used as tools of information to others to keep it real 'look both ways before you cross the road or you'll get smooshed like him'
perhaps poor/starving 3rd world people are there to make us feel humble, and thankful for what we have, to accept that we've got a pretty good life, and try our best to help out

or its all that mumbo jumbo shite about humans the sinner and yada yada

i don't know, don't really care (except in some exitential sort of way) but i've always throught this sort of questioning was kinda piss weak and easy to counteract
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:57 AM   #18
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Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Peterrrrr

But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
I'm agnostic, but think it's every bit as presumptuous and arrogant to say you can prove there is no god as it is to say you can prove there is a god. The problem with the questions noted above is they have nothing to do with god, they are simply what some people who believe in a god think. Just because they think it doesn't make it true. It's a little like saying because some parents rape and murder their children, parenthood is inherently evil.
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Old 11-05-2007, 06:23 AM   #19
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,
this statement has always bothered me a little bit


"Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward; karma simply deals with what is. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:49 AM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Peterrrrr


But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
As a Christian, I often wonder the same thing myself and have always been amazed and how many Christians are obsessed with prayer, but never study the theology of it.

The concept of petitionary prayer has always been a struggle for me. In college, I read an essay written by an amazing theologian and basically his point is that the purpose of petitionary prayer is not to actually intervene on someone else's behalf and change the will of God, but to simply have a conversation with God in order to better understand and accept his will. The best example of this is Jesus praying to God before his crucifixion. He prays three times. The first time he is trying to change the will of God, begging God to intervene on his behalf, but by the third time he is calm and praying to God that God's will shall be done.

If you want to read the essay, I will find it and post the name (I know who it's by but can't remember the title). My post is just a brief synopsis. The essay is devoted to answer the question you asked, at least from a Reformed point of view.
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:46 AM   #21
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Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Peterrrrr


Ask yourself the questions, and If you still think there is a God... Well...

But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
Peterrrrrrrrrrr, seriously, stick to your voice threads. At least you can memorize what notes are hit and fake your way through music theory. You really don't know what you are doing here.
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:25 PM   #22
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Well that's a little harsh, BVS.

Peter, you've obviously made up your mind in this area and will accept no answers that contradict your opinion. So what is there to discuss? If you're not willing to see the other side, and you're also not willing to speak up and provide your own views (instead of linking to 20 minutes of videos that are completely one sided and downright insulting to their target audience), then what's the point? If you're just coming here to say "all you Christians are wrong," well, ok, mission accomplished.

Now is there anything you'd actually like to discuss?
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:34 PM   #23
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Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Peterrrrr


Ask yourself the questions, and If you still think there is a God... Well...

But please tell me why do so many christian believe that God heals pepole but not amputes. And why does God help a person who have some pain in his neck but not a hungry or sick child in Africa?
I don't have time to watch the vids, but these are great questions.

You have to remember, in both these cases, the Bible tells us to do these same things: help the sick and poor. I know many Christians who helped provide artificial limbs to girls from Sierra Leone who had their arms and legs chopped off. When I was a reporter, I covered two of these girls and their recovery. The way the whole thing came together was considered an act of God from pretty much everyone involved. There were many unexplained things that happened, or doors that opened, for this to take place.
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called 'the friend of God.' See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." - James 2:14-26
This isn't saying that works save you though, it's saying a saving faith is lived out by works. This is consistent to Paul's view on faith alone saving you. James is just saying real faith is lived out.

This is even seen in the example of the criminal crucified next to Christ. He expressed his faith, and Christ said "Surely, you will be with me in paradise." He was dying. He didn't have a chance to hop down off the cross and do some good works. His faith alone was enough. Christ knew it was genuine enough to count - on the same level of a faith that's backed up with works.
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:58 PM   #25
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I'm not a Christian, but I am a theist, and all I'm getting from these videos is that a very obnoxious atheist seems to think that every believer thinks the same as another, including literally following writings that many Christians today see as irrelevant.

In fact, I found the video completely offensive, despite the fact I view a deity in a different manner.
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:20 PM   #26
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje


In college, I read an essay written by an amazing theologian and basically his point is that the purpose of petitionary prayer is not to actually intervene on someone else's behalf and change the will of God, but to simply have a conversation with God in order to better understand and accept his will. The best example of this is Jesus praying to God before his crucifixion. He prays three times. The first time he is trying to change the will of God, begging God to intervene on his behalf, but by the third time he is calm and praying to God that God's will shall be done.

I would certainly be interested in the essay, if you don't mind. I often found it hard to pray like that because I knew God wasn't going to be like "Well now that you mention it, maybe I won't let them die of cancer after all" and I've always been uncomfortable when people viewed petitionary prayer like that.
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:29 PM   #27
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

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Originally posted by AttnKleinkind


I would certainly be interested in the essay, if you don't mind. I often found it hard to pray like that because I knew God wasn't going to be like "Well now that you mention it, maybe I won't let them die of cancer after all" and I've always been uncomfortable when people viewed petitionary prayer like that.
OK I will dig it out tonight and see what it's called. It was by Friederich Schleiermacher (lord, that's a mouthful!).

I struggled (and still in some ways struggle) with petitionary prayer b/c of all the times people have said to me "let's pray about it" instead of actually DOING something. I can't handle that. For example, one of my best friends died of cancer when she was 20 and she had tons of people from all over praying for her on a daily basis. A whole lot of good that did. She suffered for months and months. Oh, and when another friend had such a severe eating disorder we were seriously worried she would have a heart attack, her roommates told me they were going to "pray about it" first. Honestly, there are many times I find prayer to be inappropriate and even offensive. Again, when my friend died, I remember at the funeral one of the deans of our college came up to my other friend (the dead friend's roommate) and told her that she had been "praying for her and God has a plan." I've never been so livid in my entire life as when she said that. I'm sure she thought it was a nice thing to say, but who is she to say something like that? She didn't even know the girl that died, she never offered to carry her books when she was going to classes while on chemo and she certainly never went to see her in the hospital when she was balding and swollen and could barely talk. I won't WANT people to PRAY, I want them to actually CARE!

/rant
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:57 PM   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje


I struggled (and still in some ways struggle) with petitionary prayer b/c of all the times people have said to me "let's pray about it" instead of actually DOING something. I can't handle that. For example, one of my best friends died of cancer when she was 20 and she had tons of people from all over praying for her on a daily basis. A whole lot of good that did. She suffered for months and months. Oh, and when another friend had such a severe eating disorder we were seriously worried she would have a heart attack, her roommates told me they were going to "pray about it" first. Honestly, there are many times I find prayer to be inappropriate and even offensive. Again, when my friend died, I remember at the funeral one of the deans of our college came up to my other friend (the dead friend's roommate) and told her that she had been "praying for her and God has a plan." I've never been so livid in my entire life as when she said that. I'm sure she thought it was a nice thing to say, but who is she to say something like that? She didn't even know the girl that died, she never offered to carry her books when she was going to classes while on chemo and she certainly never went to see her in the hospital when she was balding and swollen and could barely talk. I won't WANT people to PRAY, I want them to actually CARE!

/rant
This is an example, to me, of the verses in James referring to a saving faith and how it must accompany works. The works don't save you, but they are a sign of a legit faith. Does that make sense? I certainly see what you're saying. I would be upset, too. I still think prayer is important though. I agreed with what you said earlier, but I believe in intercessory prayer, too. Christ himself prayed such a prayer in John 17.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:53 PM   #29
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Attn, the essay is called "The Power of Prayer in Relation to Outward Circumstances". I can transcribe it for you tomorrow at work. It's a pretty short sermon so it shouldn't take me long to type.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:07 PM   #30
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 10 questions to Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje


OK I will dig it out tonight and see what it's called. It was by Friederich Schleiermacher (lord, that's a mouthful!).

I struggled (and still in some ways struggle) with petitionary prayer b/c of all the times people have said to me "let's pray about it" instead of actually DOING something. I can't handle that. For example, one of my best friends died of cancer when she was 20 and she had tons of people from all over praying for her on a daily basis. A whole lot of good that did. She suffered for months and months. Oh, and when another friend had such a severe eating disorder we were seriously worried she would have a heart attack, her roommates told me they were going to "pray about it" first. Honestly, there are many times I find prayer to be inappropriate and even offensive. Again, when my friend died, I remember at the funeral one of the deans of our college came up to my other friend (the dead friend's roommate) and told her that she had been "praying for her and God has a plan." I've never been so livid in my entire life as when she said that. I'm sure she thought it was a nice thing to say, but who is she to say something like that? She didn't even know the girl that died, she never offered to carry her books when she was going to classes while on chemo and she certainly never went to see her in the hospital when she was balding and swollen and could barely talk. I won't WANT people to PRAY, I want them to actually CARE!

/rant
It seems like this is tied directly to the issue of why God doesn't intervene in suffering, period. I mean after all is a God who doesn't respond to petitionary prayers somehow better than One who does on occasion? In either case the suffering continues unalleviated. . .

I'm sorry about your friend, Lies.
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