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Old 06-29-2005, 04:37 PM   #121
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Originally posted by Irvine511




and where is it all recorded? in Scripture. something you can choose accept as literal truth, or you cannot.

i've also never said this things were opinion. they are *beliefs*.

fact #3 has nothing to do with proving or disproving that Jesus was the son of God, or even that there is a God. people are willing to die for many strange reasons.
josephus

I liked that article by the way
it expressed my sentiments a lot better than I could
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Old 06-29-2005, 04:38 PM   #122
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josephus


what's that?
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Old 06-29-2005, 04:49 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
what's that?
Josephus (a.k.a., "Flavius Josephus" or "Yosef Ben-Matityahu") was a Jewish military commander who surrendered to the Roman Empire during the Great Jewish Revolt, which culminated in the Destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

He is viewed as a major extra-Biblical source of information about Jewish culture, but his detractors even within Judaism call him a traitor, dismissing his writings as Roman propaganda or personal apologeticism to increase his importance in history.

Nonetheless, in spite of questions of Josephus' accuracy as a historian, he makes mention of many Jewish institutions and figures that are mentioned in the Bible, making their secular existence likely.

However, like most figures, Josephus was born after the death of Jesus, so he would not be a first person historian. He would merely be regurgitating what society believed in his day.

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Old 06-29-2005, 04:58 PM   #124
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And for Josephus' relevance to Christianity, he supposedly makes mention of Jesus:

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Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
However, there's a problem of "dates." The oldest existing copies of these manuscripts date from the 9th century, but is also referenced by Eusebius around A.D. 324. So either it existed in the original Josephus texts, or critics have countered that Eusebius invented the passage himself. There's no evidence of its existence prior to that; but considering Josephus' consistently Jewish POV, it seems highly illogical that a man who considered himself a devout Jew would reference Jesus as the Messiah.

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Old 06-29-2005, 05:04 PM   #125
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I was just pointing out that he was a source of information beyond the bible that I knew of, Irvine. Sorry for not actually telling you what I was talking about
Melon covered it though
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Old 06-29-2005, 05:17 PM   #126
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if youre interested, theres also some writings by "Tacitus" on Christ
And by "suetonius"
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:44 PM   #127
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thanks Melon. very interesting.

i'm well aware that Jesus is a historical figure, and one of my biggest regrets is that i didn't take a class in college called "The Historical Jesus."

which might be a good name for Bono ...

anyway, simple documentation of major points in his life and stating what his followers believed does not divinity prove.

what's puzzling me is that i find that faith of the human kind, the kind that looks at uncertaintly and empowers the self to choose to believe, is far, far more powerful and moving, to me, than if it were incontravertible fact.

asserting, over and over, that jesus IS the son of God and that he is the only way and truth and light strikes me as evidence of a weakness of faith, not strength.
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Old 06-29-2005, 09:54 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
if youre interested, theres also some writings by "Tacitus" on Christ
And by "suetonius"
Tacitus is stronger evidence of Jesus' existence, merely because his condescending attitude towards the Christians and Jews is very much in keeping with Roman attitudes of the era. Most of the "great civilizations" that existed during the Biblical times often saw Israel as a backwater province full of barbaric people. They found circumcision, for instance, to be particularly offensive to their sensibilities.

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"But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour. The originator of this name, Christus, was sent to execution by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified.
Some scholars do question if this is yet another instance of "Christian forgery," like in the case of Josephus. However, unlike Josephus, there's no clear evidence.

Suetonius, however, is a bit questionable, merely because of his brevity:

Quote:
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."
"Chrestus" literally translates to "Useful One" and was commonly applied to slaves. However, some choose to translate that as "Christ." And, because of his date, he may have been influenced by Tacitus' writings.

A side criticism of both Tacitus and Suetonius, however, is that they both, again, were born well after the death of Christ. Tacitus was born in A.D. 56 and Suetonius was born in A.D. 75. Again, they would have to rely on what the region believed, rather than with first-person accounts.

Melon
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Old 06-30-2005, 12:04 AM   #129
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I agree with the Court's stand on removing Ten Commandment monuments from the courthouse. The function of the court is to rule on the basis of man's laws not "God's" laws.

However, it is all symbolic. Whether the Ten Commandments are displayed or removed, the courts will rule wisely or badly, the juries will decide based on evidence or some incomprehensible reasoning of their own, rights will be upheld or trampled on.
Actual justice is neither served nor hurt by the presence or removal of the displays.

Both sides of this cultural, political, religious/secular war seem to care more about symbols than the redressing of any real problems.
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Old 07-01-2005, 01:15 PM   #130
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"IN GOD"S COUNTRY" BONO
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Old 07-01-2005, 01:30 PM   #131
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Well there you have it. Irrefutable proof. A song title.

That's it Melon, time to concede.
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Old 07-01-2005, 02:22 PM   #132
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"IN GOD"S COUNTRY" BONO
You're bringing so much to the discussion.
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Old 07-01-2005, 06:18 PM   #133
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Originally posted by Diemen
Well there you have it. Irrefutable proof. A song title.

That's it Melon, time to concede.
LOL




I just thought I would let Bono do a little talking!
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