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Old 06-27-2005, 07:15 PM   #61
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I don't like Roy Moore, the guy who's been making a big deal about his Ten Commandments statue in the Alabama courthouse. I think he's doing the whole thing for political gain, it's not really a spiritual thing for him, and he doesn't recognize the importance of the separation of church and state. Notice I said church and state, I know some of you think it's Christ and state. Not in Alabama, particularly. I don't care that the governor has prayer breakfasts. Some of the other liberals do, but I don't. The governor is a sincerely spiritual man. Roy Moore wants his job, you see. He's using this as a springboard to deny the governor the Republican nomination for governor next year. Yikes, I'm going to be a real nervous Nelly over this election. I may have to vote in the Republican primary. I did in 2000, and I had an identity crisis. This isn't the last time I'll be posting a note saying I'm against Moore.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:25 PM   #62
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Originally posted by melon


There's a lot out there. Here's one of my favorites from John Adams' book, "A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88):

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."






Abortion has existed for thousands of years. Ancient texts often record substances that could be used to induce labor for unwanted pregnancies, along with the existence of some texts that list punishments for using those substances. However, let's put it this way, if people wanted to have an abortion, they knew how. Or, if you were one of the Inuit, you just left your baby out in the cold and let it die.

And who says that, over the past 50 years that we've seen an increase in violent crime? Ask a black person what they'd say about that. Over the past 50 years, they haven't worried about getting lynched for looking at a white woman the wrong way. But I guess when good Christians hang people, they deserve it, right?

Pornography has also existed for thousands of years. Gotta love those ancient paintings of Indians (from India) engaging in group sex.

Adultery has also been very commonplace; they just used to put nice names on it. It was said that you married out of convenience, but then you'd have a mistress out of love. It was only until the 19th century that then-liberal Protestants believed that marriage should be out of love, not for dowries or property alliances. That's probably why much of the world still has arranged marriages; they still don't believe marriage should be out of love.

And homosexuality. You can kindly fuck off. My boyfriend and I have more morality than most of the fucking heteros that I know. If you don't like homosexuality, don't partake in it. Period. Science and reason have long since determined that it's natural, and it's due time for religion to wake up to reality.



You're so blind that you listen to every crackpot minister that tells you that. In the 19th century, they said the same thing. That our "morals" were falling apart. Blah blah blah. They've said the same thing every year for 2000 years, and only the blind would continue to believe it.

The fact remains that we are living in the most peaceful and tolerant time the world has ever known, and it has mostly to do with the fact that, with increasing education levels, people are realizing what a joke religion has become, and that "love" in Christianity is selective. Thankfully, the days of religion causing war is increasingly coming to an end; but I guess we still have our modern Crusades in the "war on terror."

Melon
http://www.ingodwetrustassociation.c..._not_wrong.htm

I found this for your history


I never said abortion wasnt around, I said it became "legal" and that is a quote I found on the internet. Pornography may have existed but not like today, this should not even be an argument, look at how everything is becoming accepted slowly and slowy, you walk down the streets of vegas these days and theres pornography on every street corner and all over the street, its just like a drug, and it is addicting many people, and it ruins marriages. Adultery is all over the tv, and in movies like it is nothing now, its not a big deal, people having sex with whoever, in Hollywood its a joke to them, but it is very serious. Violence has increased, like I said- investigate. I dont care about your boyfriend and your morality with him, and I love homosexuals like a brother, they are no better or worse then me. But I beleive the bible and the teachings of the prophets of God. All of those things are increasing, and we are drifting further and further from the shore- make excuses for it, but its true.

I dont know why you bring up ministers, I never said anything about them, I beleive in God and his law, and this great country he gave us, and we should have the respect for him to obey his commandments, and be able to show our grattitude to him.

You have a great attitude towards morals, I can tell by genuine "blah blah". I cant believe that you cant see the diffrence from 200 years to now, or even 10 years, it is slowly slipping and only the blind refuse to see it.

Geez you know everything there is to know about religion, and what a joke it is, keep on living your life, with your great morals and attitude!
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:27 PM   #63
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:29 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


In the past 50 years we've seen the "moral" hijack the religion while they spend billions building up nuclear weapons.

We've seen the "moral" support segregation, the outlawing of interratial marriage, and create 2nd class citizens.

So spare me the psedo history lesson.

The things you propose won't bring morality to this country. Morality doesn't come from a dollar bill or a plaque it comes from our parents, role models, and ourselves.
So a government with commandments from God at there side is better then a corrupt government, with now morals to obey.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:32 PM   #65
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I agree that morals need to come from parents etc.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:33 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by macphisto23


So a government with commandments from God at there side is better then a corrupt government, with now morals to obey.
What??!!

Explain please...
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:43 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by macphisto23
http://www.ingodwetrustassociation.c..._not_wrong.htm

I found this for your history
You'll ignore direct quotes from the Founding Fathers in favor of quotes from state constitutions? Well, I never expected my quotations to be actually listened to anyway. The fact remains that our nation was founded on secularism and religious freedom--and, simultaneously, freedom from religion. If they wanted religion to dictate their lives, they would have kept the old monarchy and its state religion.

Quote:
You have a great attitude towards morals, I can tell by genuine "blah blah". I cant believe that you cant see the diffrence from 200 years to now, or even 10 years, it is slowly slipping and only the blind refuse to see it.

Geez you know everything there is to know about religion, and what a joke it is, keep on living your life, with your great morals and attitude!
"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:8-10

This is my law, and the only law of early Christianity. You can keep your archaic "Ten Commandments," for all I care. It's merely a perversion of what early Christianity stood for: a rejection of Jewish legalism, in favor of inclusion. I often wish the early Church fathers went with their initial instinct, which was to eliminate the Old Testament completely. Instead, they recognized that the Old Testament had value as a point of reference. It was never intended to be a guiding precept of Christian morality; that was the purpose of the New Testament.

And you look at 200 years ago, and you see some romanticist vision of the past that was created by Hollywood. You don't see the rampant disease. A bacterial infection 200 years ago would have seen your death, whereas nowadays, we use antibiotics like candy. You don't see the almost incessant wars they had. The cause of the Spanish American War in 1898 was actually invented by newspaper magnate, William Randolph Hearst, and America went along with it. You don't see the corruption that people fought against. While Hollywood gleefully portrays the upper classes of 200 years ago, they ignore the lower classes who toiled for 12+ hour days, seven days a week, including children. In fact, the end of child labor owes a great debt to Marxism. In Europe, ultimately, religion stood for everything that was corrupt and imperial, and Italy gleefully seized the Papal States in 1870 to stick it to the Catholic Church. The cardinal of Boston was on record for opposing women's suffrage with the same zeal that the Catholic Church currently opposes gay marriage.

That's reality. That went on 100-200 years ago. If you think we have it worse off now, feel free to invent a time machine and go back in time.

Melon
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:44 PM   #68
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If we're on a history kick here, God created the commandments because the people asked for them

edited to say: and he dismissed them as law after the sacrifice
so they are just a moral guideline now. not "law" in a christian sense
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:47 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by macphisto23


So a government with commandments from God at there side is better then a corrupt government, with now morals to obey.
The commandments are not from god, proper laws can be crafted by man in a logical and proper fashion without using "divinity" as a smokescreen to make them beyond reproach.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:52 PM   #70
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i posted this a few days ago in another thread, but i think it's applicable here ...



what strikes me as odd about very religious people -- of all faiths -- is that they don't understand that it is secularism that allows for the robust practice of any faith to begin with. christianism - politicized Christianity ... i'm trying to find new words so i don't piss off all self-identified Christians - argues for the imposition of one religion's values over the entire society. the example that leaps to mind would be preventing gay couples from getting civil marriages or unions and prevent pregnant women from seeking an abortion. secularism, by contrast, does not say "marraige for gay people and federally funded abortions." what secularism does is allow Christians, and any other religious faith, to affirm religious values, live exactly as they see fit, and avoid abortion and gay civil unions in their own lives. secularism says that, because the government represents all citizens equally, it must be as neutral as possible in regards to theological issues. the Church and the state shall coexist independently.

this does not mean that all displays of faith should be removed from the public arena. secularists can be immoderate too. however, it's hilarious when fundamentalists to say that they are being persecuted merely because others are treated equally in the public square. i.e., it's ludicrous for Rick Santorum to say that gay marriage is an attack on his marriage.

and the irony of this is that secularism is not only compatible with aggressive and proud Christian faith, secularism actually allows the practice of that faith in as free a form as those who live in a secular society might wish. secularism does not regard the rights of minorities as somehow only achievable at someone else's expense -- and if Christianists were in the minority, they might come to value secularism in the ways that Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and atheists currently do.

essentially, the difference between secularism and Christianism is that one side is happy to let people make their own moral choices; and one side isn't
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:53 PM   #71
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essentially, the fact that we have separation of church and state enables all self-identified Christians on this list to practice their religion as they see fit. even small chips at the wall between the two must be resisted, especially by those who are most religious, because without it, you will start to lose the freedoms you now enjoy.
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Old 06-27-2005, 07:58 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The commandments are not from god, proper laws can be crafted by man in a logical and proper fashion without using "divinity" as a smokescreen to make them beyond reproach.
Ok you believe what you want, either way they are there for the better not for worse
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Old 06-27-2005, 08:01 PM   #73
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Originally posted by u2bonogirl
If we're on a history kick here, God created the commandments because the people asked for them
If we're on a history kick, the Pharisaic Old Testament, which is what we have, was created by minions of Persian king, Cyrus the Great. The latter half of the Old Testament is full of Persian figures: Ezra, for instance, reflects the people who really wrote our Old Testament.

Cyrus was known as a subverter of religions to ensure loyalty. He, himself, was a Zoroastrian, but he conquered a wide land with various religions, including what is now Israel. However, rather than forced conversion, Cyrus would completely reinvent religions to ensure loyalty. Cyrus would feign belief in gods like Baal or Marduk, then declare himself a god and, depending on his mood, would sometimes destroy the religion afterwards. While Cyrus did not destroy Judaism, the latter half of the Old Testament shows plenty of parables of where Cyrus feigns belief in the Jewish concept of God. Except that he was no longer the tribal, mountain God, "Yahweh." Instead, "Yahweh" was transformed into a mirror of the main Zoroastrian god, Ahura Mazda, while the evil god, Angra Mainyu (a.k.a., "Ahriman" or "Shaitan"), was transformed into "Satan" and demoted to an angel to maintain monotheism. But if you ever wondered why God was petty in the beginning of the OT and then does an about face in the latter half, it's because they're, for all intensive purposes, two different gods; and if you ever wondered why Satan had so much power for an angel, it's because his qualities were fashioned off of a god.

Following the destruction of the Persian Empire and conquest of the region by Alexander the Great, Judaism divided under two main factions: the Sadducees, who reflected old Jewish belief, and the Pharisees (taken from Parsi or "Persian"; the "Parsis" in India are Zoroastrians), who reflected Zoroastrian-infused Judaism. They hated each other, and while the Pharisees rejected Jesus, because He was not a warrior Messiah, the Sadducees rejected him, because Messianic beliefs originated from Zoroastrianism. Original Judaism did not believe in a Messiah at all.

History changed forever after A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and either murdered or forced Jews into slavery. The Sadducees were effectively annihilated, while the then minority Pharisees were the only Jews left. The head of the Pharisees had made an arrangement with the Roman Empire prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and was busy setting up a learning center in Tyre. As such, our Old Testament is, more or less, the Pharisees' Old Testament, while the text of the Sadducees is, so far, forever lost.

Most ironically, if we are to follow Zoroastrian beliefs, then "the end" already occurred 2000 years ago with Jesus. They had no theology of a Second Coming. However, the book of Revelation is a mirror of what Zoroastrians, and, by extension, the Pharisees expected with the First Coming: a warrior Messiah who will vanquish their enemies and lead to Judgment Day. As such, Christianity is looking for disappointment, if Jesus comes again and is as unexpectedly peaceful as He was the first time around.

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Old 06-27-2005, 08:02 PM   #74
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They are not the foundation of society when we have a system of law enforcement, judiciary and government.
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Old 06-27-2005, 08:03 PM   #75
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I cant wait to major in history
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