It's Official: I Got a 4 on my AP World Exam

[WildHoneyAlways]

Because it dilutes the experience and is not indicative of the college experience (if you go to a top school). I was enrolled in the most difficult life sciences specialization at the #1 university in the country. It was a small program of about 45 students (so you can imagine how competitive it was). We still had a range of grades, but we did not have people failing and those who were getting lower grades did so because they were disinterested, not because they lacked the aptitude. So yes, at least at the top colleges, you are not surrounded by "everyone and their mother" and in that way AP classes do not reflect reality. It is also a question of competition - how hard is it to get a top score if an argument can be made that 80% of the class doesn't really belong there?

I still don't understand how it dilutes the experience. Don't top students want to achieve no matter who is in class with them? No matter who is enrolled in the AP class the subject does not change, the test does not change. The tests have not been made easier. They are not meant for everyone to get 4's and 5's. In fact, the percentage of students receiving 5's on the AP Euro test in the past 10 years has decreased, not increased b/c of everyone and their mother taking the test. Apparently it is still difficult to earn a top score.

In addition, AP classes are not meant to fulfill requirements for college majors. They are, for the most part, general education classes.

I think the idea of AP classes is good. But I'd restrict them to the top 10% of students. You can always use some affirmative action means to bring in a certain number of students who have faced systemic disadvantage. But I don't understand why we are now a society who thinks everyone should have an equal shot to be Einstein. I stink at tennis...I never expected to be given a free ride into Bolletieri's academy and then be allowed to fail there.

But you see, in a public school system, every child has the right to an equal education. If the student meets the prerequisites and is willing, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to take the class. Every student has the right to fail, there is no free ride. These are advanced placement classes; the curriculum is non negotiable. Not everyone is going to get A's. It's never been that way. It has been more than 10 years since I took my last AP test. I was in class with the top 10% and not everyone earned an A. (myself included )

Moreover, not all students fall neatly into a top 10%. What about foreign language, computer science, & studio art? Obviously some students are more successful in humanities classes than in math &/or science and vice versa.

As it is, those who truly don't belong drop out the first week or so anyway. College board just wants all students who are going to willing accept a rigorous academic curriculum to be considered for AP.

 

[LikeNoOneBefore]

^

 

[LMP]

Class ranks or lists mean absolutely nothing when it comes to taking that test, for example:

my class rank is I think 45 out of about 700, and my buddy is in the top 10, he still got a 2 on the exam... but an A in the class. He just didn't take the test seriously, I hope he will next year.

 

[AtomicBono]

Class ranks or lists mean absolutely nothing when it comes to taking that test, for example:

my class rank is I think 45 out of about 700, and my buddy is in the top 10, he still got a 2 on the exam... but an A in the class. He just didn't take the test seriously, I hope he will next year.

word I was #1 and I fuckin bombed calculus lol ... I really didn't study enough, but also, the test was very difficult. The strongest math student in our class only got a 2.

 

[VertigoGal]

If it weren't for AP classes, I just wouldn't try in any of my classes because I'd be bored to death. AP US History also GREATLY improved my writing.

Agreed. I don't really know/care too much about their exact worth or whatever but I do know that at my school at least, AP classes tend to be the ones with great teachers and genuinely interested students. And even if I'll have little use for DBQ's in my everyday life my AP world class improved my writing skills more than any of my pointless lit classes so far.

 

[anitram]

But you see, in a public school system, every child has the right to an equal education. If the student meets the prerequisites and is willing, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to take the class.

Not the school I went to.

We had three levels of courses. To get into the top one you had to be in the top 30% of a general level class in a prior year.

Is it in the best interest of children to put them in classes where they have an equal opportunity to FAIL or is it better to stream them where they will actually learn something productive? The entire European system (which is lightyears ahead of the North American one, IMO, having studied in both) is structured this way. Kids who are not going to go to university to pursue advanced degrees are in a general stream which prepares them for a variety of careers and there is nothing shameful or embarrassing about them. They actually don't fail their courses, take something valuable from them and acquire a good skill to have.

I don't understand why we think it's a great idea to give everyone an equal education when kids are not equal in aptitude or interests. To me, that's very backwards.

 

[LikeNoOneBefore]

Class ranks or lists mean absolutely nothing when it comes to taking that test, for example:

my class rank is I think 45 out of about 700, and my buddy is in the top 10, he still got a 2 on the exam... but an A in the class. He just didn't take the test seriously, I hope he will next year.

Yeah, my friend who is #1 got a 32 on her ACT. Good, but for all the bragging she does, she probably should have gotten a higher score, considering that people with lower grades than she gets got the same.

Natural talent only gets you so far.

 

[LemonMelon]

I took a prep AP world history test on sparknotes and got an average score without even studying.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Not the school I went to.

We had three levels of courses. To get into the top one you had to be in the top 30% of a general level class in a prior year.

Is it in the best interest of children to put them in classes where they have an equal opportunity to FAIL or is it better to stream them where they will actually learn something productive? The entire European system (which is lightyears ahead of the North American one, IMO, having studied in both) is structured this way. Kids who are not going to go to university to pursue advanced degrees are in a general stream which prepares them for a variety of careers and there is nothing shameful or embarrassing about them. They actually don't fail their courses, take something valuable from them and acquire a good skill to have.

I don't understand why we think it's a great idea to give everyone an equal education when kids are not equal in aptitude or interests. To me, that's very backwards.

You seem to be blending two different issues:
1.) Tracking
2.) Vocational Education

I'll address tracking first. I have taught in both tracked ( 3 levels, low, academic & honors/AP) and untracked settings (honors/AP and everyone else). I have mixed feelings about tracking. There are numerous positives and negatives. I prefer untracked schools. I think students get a better education. What happens in low level classes (not special education classes) is that students are held to a lesser standard and they are never pushed to do better. I have taught all three levels and I found the lower track classes dreadful. Not because of the students but because of the stigma and what was expected of them. My school district recently de-tracked. Most of the lower track students integrated seamlessly and found varying degrees of success in a college prep class. Honors classes remain separate b/c of the weighted grade scale. Students have the ability to take an honors class if they want to. I recommend a good number of students for honor or AP US History based on what they do in my world civ class. It's amazing what can happen if a teacher shows just a little confidence in a student. Why are you assuming that all these students are failing AP classes?

Being that I am a child of a tradesman (my dad is a pipefitter) I am a huge supporter of expanding vocational education programs. I agree that not every student is meant to go to a 4 year university. I am constantly pushing for more voc ed classes. I was very fortunate to attend a high school that had both tremendous AP & voc ed programs housed in the same place.

The fact that you mentioned that voc ed programs are nothing to be embarrassed about is patronizing and reeks of academic elitism. Who is anyone to say that a student who is interested in a trade shouldn't be in an AP class? That's bullshit, I'm sorry. In fact, when my younger brother was in high school he took AP Physics and Auto Mechanics his senior year. Junior year he took honors chem and graphic arts. He wasn't prevented from taking applied tech classes b/c he was an honor and AP student. He was allowed to take classes that he was interested in and willing to do the work for.

No one is forcing every student, or even most students, to take AP classes just like no one is forcing student to take voc ed classes. Why not let students explore their interests? Why is choice a bad thing? As my father has shown me, you can be both a pipefitter and a history scholar. They are not mutually exclusive or determined by class rank.

 

[Irvine511]

Why is choice a bad thing? As my father has shown me, you can be both a pipefitter and a history scholar. They are not mutually exclusive or determined by class rank.

just to pop in for a moment, having gone through the North American system but having at least some exposure -- teaching at an international school in Europe where many students had fled the Belgian education system, though i agree that this isn't comparable to having been taught under the system -- there are positives and negatives to both, i agree. it seems to make sense that a high school student who hates english but wants to be a mechanic should be put on a vocational track earlier because it's what he wants to do and if he's studying what he wants he'll be that much happier and effective in class. i would have been much happier in high school if i could have not taken Physics and taken a more specialized English class. but i suffered through math and science, and specialized in college. post-college, i became an SAT tutor and actually foudn myself enjoying teaching the math much, much more than the verbal, and i can't help but think it has something to do with the fact that i once suffered through math but got a well-rounded enough education -- from a public school no less -- that it was all able to connect in adulthood. i'm a much more well-rounded person because i have a liberal arts background, and it's this exposure, whether painful or not in high school, that helps the bricklayer love Steinbeck.

the long and short of it is that a European will look at North American students and think, "they know so little about their subjects," and a North American will look at a European and think, "the're so one-sided and can't think outside of the box."

so, all toss-ups. what's more important? getting the right kids in the right classes so the class is a success, or exposing kids to everything and hoping they'll be able to make heads-or-tails out of it and find their own way through?

also, there were kids who weren't in the top 30% of my high school class who were in my AP classes, and did quite well, and most importantly, added a great deal to class discussion. i think it's criminal that someone might fuck up freshman year and be outside of the 30% -- and this tends to happen to boys quite a bit, who are usually far less mature when they begin high school than their female counter parts -- and then be barred from an AP class even if they have the willingness to do the work.

but ... yeah, as for this thread, i went to a very exclusive college and my AP English score got me out of 101, but that was about it. the school only offered AP classes senior year, too. none of this AP-as-a-sophomore stuff. however, many of the "honors" classes in my high school were arguably more rigorous than the AP classes -- or so the teachers said -- and many students elected to take the exam without having directly prepared for it. and most of us got 4s and 5s. in my junior year US History class, pretty much everyone got a 4 or higher.