What the hell is so wrong with Pop?

[U2Kitten]

another excellent post doctorwho!

 

[U2_Guy]

But you have to consider, that did come out at the time of the release, they may have come to change their minds in time

Yeah, right.

Most likely scenario: a "guy in a suit" from Interscope calls Paul McGuiness and tells him:

"Hey Paul, maybe it's a good idea not to praise Pop and Popmart now (2000)...We need to sell loads of CDs and tickets with ATYCLB so you better tell the boys to bash Pop and - who knows - say it's unfinished, rushed or whatever... You know Paul, that will show the american audience that U2 recognizes their own fault for the failure of the album... You know, americans are kind of arrogant... They will never assume they coud not get into the whole Pop thing... And at the same time it will show the american audience that U2 is back to their 80's sound".

Paul: "Hmmm... maybe you are right. I'll tell the boys to do as you say so we will sell loads of records/tickets".

Paul to Bono (who's easily influentiable): "Hey Bono... maybe if you and the guys start bashing Pop, the american audience will forgive U2 for the Pop fiasco, what do you think?"

Bono: "Hmmmm... yea... maybe you are right... Pop was great... powerful stuff, a treasure hidden under the trash... big ideas... our most personal record and yet it had our least serious image ever... but we rushed a bit making it... so...you are right! Pop is not that good. As a matter of fact it's ATYCLB that's awesome! Our best record to date! Every song is a single! Bla bla bla..."

 

[EXIT_TO_THE_NORTH]

POP is better than ATYCLB …
Mofo
Do you feel loved?
Staring …
Gone
Velvet dress …
Please

I would venture to say these six songs are better than any six off ATYCLB, Zooropa; AND are equal to any six off AB.

Great album, but not a classic. boy, it had potential.

 

[grbounds]

Pop's brilliant and a success worldwide.

But in the USA many ppl didn't really get it. They saw the Discoteque video and thought it was "gay". Then they didn't buy the album, the album failed in the USA and now we have ATYCLB/HTDAAB to please those americans who never quite understood Pop. And Bono's wearing a cowboy hat on the Vertigo video. They look "macho" in the view of the american audience so they will buy this new album.

right..... bono is wearing a cowboy hat to look macho in front of americans......

 

[U2Kitten]

right..... bono is wearing a cowboy hat to look macho in front of americans......

Bono also wore a cowboy hat in the Pop days

and sorry not buying the corporate conspiracy theory. Why? The band have too much pride in themselves to ever falsely say something about their own work that they didn't mean.

 

[Miggy D]

I wish it wasn't so fashionable to trash on us Americans. It's really disgusting how many people who don't live in America think of all of us as this one, big generic blob. We're the most racially, ethnically, and religiously diverse country in the entire world. It offends me when you call us all idiots. Just because Pop didn't sell as well here doesn't mean people here are stupid and didn't 'get it.'

If you like Joshua Tree more than Achtung Baby, and I happen to think Achtung is better, should I start calling you an idiot because you simply didn't 'get' Achtung Baby? Of course not - you just have different tastes than me. So Pop didn't sell as well over here. Different kinds of music do different kinds of business in each country. Just because Armenian dance music is smashing up the Armenian Top 10 doesn't mean the British are stupid for not buying it en masse.

No matter the country, no matter the continent, each individual is unique, with tastes, likes, dislikes, and preferences all their own. Only until I have met all 6 billion people living on earth will I pass sweeping judgments on each nation. Not before.

 

[U2girl]

Anyway to keep the thread going POP's the 2nd greatest album U2 have ever made and will probably ever make. It amuses me that U2 released an album 2 days ago and people are more interested in talking about an album that was made 7 years ago. hehehehehe I think it shows the quality of the new album, maybe?

Wow, talk about hyping. POP of all albums is their second best?


U2 made an album 7 years ago and still the majority of the fans doesn't rank it that high - in fact, they can't even agree on it. Shows the quality of the album, I agree.

The "commercial" theory is laughable, as is the "you didn't get it" comment Pop-worshippers like to throw at others.

 

[GibsonGirl]

I like it. In fact, I like it much more than ATYCLB. The only truly weak song on it is "Miami". (Bono what the hell were you thinking of when you wrote those lyrics?!)

 

[Lancemc]

I agree U2Girl. But I'd also liek to add that while we ARE infact discussing an album 7 years old...did rjhbonovox fail to see the other 40 some threads about HTDAAB on the first few pages here? yeah, another great point from rjhbonovox. Still on a roll buddy.

 

[U2Kitten]

Wow, talk about hyping. POP of all albums is their second best?


U2 made an album 7 years ago and still the majority of the fans doesn't rank it that high - in fact, they can't even agree on it. Shows the quality of the album, I agree.

The "commercial" theory is laughable, as is the "you didn't get it" comment Pop-worshippers like to throw at others.

I agree with this post. The 'don't get it' is so old, lame and overused. It's hilarious how some act like you are lacking in intellect if you fail to see its genius! Hahaha! Like the Emperor was wearing clothes too, you just didn't see them! That's why I made the jokes about what a shame it is some don't 'get' the last 2 albums. It could be said of anything, and it would always be wrong. Some people like some things, others like others. That's all there is to it, and it's no big deal.

 

[U2Kitten]

Post #100 for this thread! A 7 year old album!

 

[Pero]

I like fast and good sounding songs, and because of that i don't adore please, playboy, miami(which sucks), iywtvd, igwsha like i absolutely love discoteque, do you feel loved and mofo, which sound like techno. Staring is third song from u2 i've heard.
first was one, second was withor

 

[Laura M]

I love Pop.

 

[doctorwho]

and sorry not buying the corporate conspiracy theory. Why? The band have too much pride in themselves to ever falsely say something about their own work that they didn't mean.

Not only that, but it's not like "Pop" sold that poorly.

Yes, it "only" sold 1.5 million copies in the U.S. Poor U2. R.E.M. wishes they could sell 1.5 million albums now! Going Platinum is still huge! And "Pop" went Platinum! Furthermore, the album sold around 7 million worldwide. Again, this is a great sum. Heck, I've heard U2 members say it sold closer to 8 million worldwide! I bet there are about 1000000000 artists out there who'd love to have 8 million copies of their album sold around the world! The irony is that this is one of U2's lower selling albums.

If you want to dis ATYCLB for sounding a bit safe, so be it. IMO, though, U2 have every right to sound like U2. Throughout the 90's, we listened to U2 try on new themes. They experimented a bit, took on alter egos and different looks and had huge bombastic stage designs. After almost a decade of this, I found it refreshing to hear U2 sound like U2.

With HTDAAB, I already hear U2 progressing again. "Fast Cars" and "Love & Peace" are proof of U2 exploring new sounds and directions. I wouldn't be surprised to hear more of this sound on future albums.

But going back to "Pop", given that it still sold quite well (just not as well as prior U2 albums) and produced a massive tour that was a success (despite what some in the press say), I highly doubt U2 decided to bash that album just to make ATYCLB sound great. Rather, I got the feeling that after sitting with the album for a few years, they saw the kinks. And yes, lower sales helped draw out those flaws more. If "Pop" sold 3 million copies in the U.S., perhaps U2 might have been more forgiving. But almost all artists alter their work if given the chance. Listen to U2 live vs. the album. Often we'll hear new verses, additional guitar, shortened songs, acoustic songs, etc. As soon as the tour started, when "Pop" was still doing well on the charts, U2 were saying how "rushed" they were - and it showed. So I have no problem with U2 saying they'd like to polish up the album. After all, how often has Bono said he hates how he sounds on early U2 albums? I bet he'd love to resing those tracks too!

Will a revised "Pop" ever be released? Who knows? Maybe Bono spoke out of turn. But I know I'd like to hear what they consider a more polished version of the songs.

 

[rjhbonovox]

I find it quite ironic that Pop was called Pop when it is as far from pop music (chart music) as you could get, and then you get 2 albums like ATYCLB & HTDAAB that are nearer to pop music (chart music, commercial music designed for the masses etc) and probably should have been called pop. Quite ironic indeed!

Anyway I love POP, and its a great album now close the thread cos I know BEST!!!!!!

 

[melon]

I wish it wasn't so fashionable to trash on us Americans. It's really disgusting how many people who don't live in America think of all of us as this one, big generic blob. We're the most racially, ethnically, and religiously diverse country in the entire world. It offends me when you call us all idiots. Just because Pop didn't sell as well here doesn't mean people here are stupid and didn't 'get it.'

It has a lot to do with our generic blob President and his generic blob policies. Unfortunately, if we want to tell the rest of the world to fuck off and go it alone, expect the rest of the world to respond accordingly.

Presidents and politicians aside, every nation has a habit of stereotyping. Most Americans probably don't have one good opinion about Middle Eastern nations. We also have a long history of stereotyping Canada and France derisively.

In other words, while it is not okay for the rest of the world to stereotype the U.S., we are also not immune from doing the stereotyping.

Regardless, why the hell was "anti-Americanism" injected into an argument about "Pop"? Because of the perception that ATYCLB and HTDAAB are "American friendly"? Blame that on U2 and Universal's decision to send U2 to Interscope from Island. While Island is an Irish label, Interscope is American. Expect "American" music accordingly.

Melon

 

[doctorwho]

It has a lot to do with our generic blob President and his generic blob policies.

Blob indeed... a big fat moronic blob who can't even keep his cabinet around for a second term.

Regardless, why the hell was "anti-Americanism" injected into an argument about "Pop"? Because of the perception that ATYCLB and HTDAAB are "American friendly"? Blame that on U2 and Universal's decision to send U2 to Interscope from Island. While Island is an Irish label, Interscope is American. Expect "American" music accordingly.

I never felt that AYTLCB or HTDAAB sounded "American". If anything sounded "American" to my ears, it was JT and R&H.

 

[cardosino]

This Cardosino character and this Ji - "cheers" - ck character certainly never watched the "A Year in Pop" documentary or read the interviews from the time Pop was released.

Anyone who really believes the band dislike Pop should see A Year in Pop.

Since you haven't actually asked me if I did, you have no idea.

For what it's worth, I did, and I did. I still don't likr the album too much.

I believe the band doesn't care too much for Pop based on THEIR more recent comments, not yours, and not on their comments while they're trying to promote the album.

i can just see them out doign interviews at the time it was released "so, tellus about your new album Bono.."

"Well, we don't think it's too good, we're going to remix the songs in a few years, we didn't finish it up properly"

 

[ponkine]

I have two major problems with your short post.

First, apparently you conveniently forgot about all the commercialism and hype there was for "Pop" back in 1997. Let's not forget the K-Mart conference, U2 day on MTV, the TV special, the most toys/souvenirs ever at concerts (including snow globes!), tons of ads everywhere, etc. Trust me, the hype in late '96 and early '97 was just as bad - if not worse - than it is now! U2 were indeed everywhere. The problem is that the album didn't click with people. It debuted at #1 and spawned a top 10 hit in the U.S., but both were quickly forgotten.

The second issue is that you are suggesting HTDAAB is ATYCLB Part 2. I strongly disagree - in fact, ATYCLB wishes it was as good as HTDAAB (and this is coming from a person who really enjoys ATYCLB). The two albums are vastly different. U2 are far more experimental and risk-taking on HTDAAB than they ever were on ATYCLB (barring "Stuck..."). Furthermore, so many people here praise "Pop" as being "experimental". I don't think so. I venture to say that only three songs fall in that category: "Do You Feel Loved", "Mofo" and "Miami". The rest is either a straight rock song ("Discotheque") or classic U2 ("Please", "Staring...", "If God Will Send..."). HTDAAB has two highly experimental tracks in "Love & Peace..." and "Fast Cars" and a more risky one with "Vertigo". So both albums are as "safe" as each other.

If you don't like HTDAAB or ATYCLB, no problems. But don't insult this work as not being experimental or overly commercial compared to "Pop", when that album was just as commercial and safe.

sorry, you didn´t understand my post at all
U2 were being so ironic with all that commercial marketing surrounding Pop. The problem is U2 now aren´t ironic anymore, and all this commercial campaign is TRUE as well with this music for masses, that´s the most annoying thing about these last albums. HTDAAB is better than ATYCLB, that´s clear, but lack its power because of all this hype, you know "THE BEST U2 ALBUM, OUR BEST 11 SONGS EVER CREATED, ETC, ETC "

 

[rjhbonovox]

I wish it wasn't so fashionable to trash on us Americans. It's really disgusting how many people who don't live in America think of all of us as this one, big generic blob. We're the most racially, ethnically, and religiously diverse country in the entire world. It offends me when you call us all idiots. Just because Pop didn't sell as well here doesn't mean people here are stupid and didn't 'get it.'

If you like Joshua Tree more than Achtung Baby, and I happen to think Achtung is better, should I start calling you an idiot because you simply didn't 'get' Achtung Baby? Of course not - you just have different tastes than me. So Pop didn't sell as well over here. Different kinds of music do different kinds of business in each country. Just because Armenian dance music is smashing up the Armenian Top 10 doesn't mean the British are stupid for not buying it en masse.

No matter the country, no matter the continent, each individual is unique, with tastes, likes, dislikes, and preferences all their own. Only until I have met all 6 billion people living on earth will I pass sweeping judgments on each nation. Not before.

Yeah but isn't it pretty correct that most Americans like a typical kind of Rawk music like Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Bryan Adams & Billy Ray Cyrus. You know with the guitars kind of straight up there the 4 beats per minute kinda rock and roll. Or am I wrong?

 

[Lancemc]

Yeah but isn't it pretty correct that most Americans like a typical kind of Rawk music like Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Bryan Adams & Billy Ray Cyrus. You know with the guitars kind of straight up there the 4 beats per minute kinda rock and roll. Or am I wrong?

You're wrong.

 

[melon]

I never felt that AYTLCB or HTDAAB sounded "American". If anything sounded "American" to my ears, it was JT and R&H.

JT and R&H are definitely "American," and I like them for that reason accordingly. U2 took the "best" of American musical heritage and made it their own, even if only for a couple of albums.

I think ATYCLB, for some U2 fans, represents a piece of the "worst" in American music: hollow lyrics, poppy songs, glitz and glamor, etc. Well, I don't know if I'd necessarily agree, but that is what I sense from some fans, even if they feel this subconsciously. After all, we had William Orbit "mess up" "Electrical Storm" (even though William Orbit is a good European electronic artist in his own right). We had a slew of unimaginative music videos from ATYCLB (I always cite that awful football "Stuck" video), and Jonas Akerlund did Britney Spears videos before "Beautiful Day." In other words, Interscope bothered to treat U2 like a prominent and relevant musical group like many of us wanted after the perceived "failure" of "Pop"...and they did exactly that, but, for them, it meant making U2 a cash cow, not a serious "European" band.

HTDAAB is probably "American," as well, solely because it melds a bit from the JT tradition (for example, "One Step Closer" has a bit of that JT-era "twang," and "Crumbs From Your Table" has a harmonica in the background for a bit) and a bit of the ATYCLB tradition by keeping the songs relatively "poppy," rather than "epic" like 1980s U2 is.

Melon

 

[Miggy D]

It has a lot to do with our generic blob President and his generic blob policies. Unfortunately, if we want to tell the rest of the world to fuck off and go it alone, expect the rest of the world to respond accordingly.

Presidents and politicians aside, every nation has a habit of stereotyping. Most Americans probably don't have one good opinion about Middle Eastern nations. We also have a long history of stereotyping Canada and France derisively.

In other words, while it is not okay for the rest of the world to stereotype the U.S., we are also not immune from doing the stereotyping.
Melon

This is just what I'm talking about.

a.) Your political opinion is your own. Bush got more electoral votes and the popular vote, so not all Americans think he's a 'generic blob.'

b.) Not all of us voted for Bush. Nearly half voted against him. I, personally, have never told the world to fuck off. So the world should not tell me I suck. It's something quite different to say 'Bush sucks' and 'Americans suck.' Bush is one American in a country of over 280 million Americans. It's the difference between saying 'I hate Kobe Bryant' and 'I hate black people.' One member of a group does not represent the whole. This should be considered before anyone makes a blanket statement.

c.) "Most Americans probably don't have one good opinion about Middle Eastern nations. We also have a long history of stereotyping Canada and France derisively."

Again with this 'we' thing. Speak for yourself, not for me. You may have a bad opinion of Middle Eastern nations, or you may not. You may have a long history of stereotyping Canada and France, or you may not. But do not use 'we' unless you actually know what 'we' stand for.

d.) "In other words, while it is not okay for the rest of the world to stereotype the U.S., we are also not immune from doing the stereotyping."

I agree completely. But I haven't seen a lot of 'Germany sucks' or 'France sucks' posts lately. I am addressing a problem that seems to exist on this forum, in which Americans are considered stupid and ignorant on the whole, not just for electing a President not very well-liked by a majority of the outside world, but for not liking Pop, of all things. I believe America is a great country, for its own reasons, just as I'm sure many Germans have pride in their country, etc. I am not going to start tearing down other countries and their citizenry just because I may have a problem with a political policy their government might be supporting, or because some of them don't care for a particular kind of music. Stereotypes are bad. All the time. Ignorance just breeds hate, and hate is never a good thing in this world.

-Miggy

 

[melon]

Yeah but isn't it pretty correct that most Americans like a typical kind of Rawk music like Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Bryan Adams & Billy Ray Cyrus. You know with the guitars kind of straight up there the 4 beats per minute kinda rock and roll. Or am I wrong?

Hahahahahahaha. Billy Ray Cyrus is sooooooooo 1990.

Melon

 

[rjhbonovox]

Hey I thought this was a U2 fan forum not a political debate forum. I reckon this is the wrong place.

 

[Lancemc]

Miggy D

 

[Miggy D]

Hey I thought this was a U2 fan forum not a political debate forum. I reckon this is the wrong place.

Point taken, but this section of the forum gets the most traffic, and I think people should read the dialogue taking place here, and see the different sides of the argument. I personally have never gone to other sections of the forum, aside from EYKIW and Where The Album Has A Name. However, I am still bombarded with a stinging anti-Americanism, even when I just want to talk about the band and its music. I would just like to have a place where I can go and discuss U2 and their musical merits/tastes without having to read 'Americans suck, I hate them.' I don't think that's too much to ask. Just because America is a prominent country doesn't mean it doesn't hurt when people generalize me.

 

[melon]

a.) Your political opinion is your own. Bush got more electoral votes and the popular vote, so not all Americans think he's a 'generic blob.'

The rest of the world resoundedly hates him. Expect the rest of the world to act accordingly, like it or not.

Personally, I don't think it's fair to blame us all for his idiocy.

b.) Not all of us voted for Bush. Nearly half voted against him. I, personally, have never told the world to fuck off. So the world should not tell me I suck. It's something quite different to say 'Bush sucks' and 'Americans suck.' Bush is one American in a country of over 280 million Americans. It's the difference between saying 'I hate Kobe Bryant' and 'I hate black people.' One member of a group does not represent the whole. This should be considered before anyone makes a blanket statement.

I never said that the world should tell us that we suck. But the U.S. certainly did that to France when Jacques Chirac was perceived to have blocked Gulf War II in the UN--despite the fact that both Russia and China were also against it, and only one veto from the Security Council is needed to derail the entire initiative. Let's face it: we were just as guilty as we're accusing Europeans of being to us.

c.) "Most Americans probably don't have one good opinion about Middle Eastern nations. We also have a long history of stereotyping Canada and France derisively."

Again with this 'we' thing. Speak for yourself, not for me. You may have a bad opinion of Middle Eastern nations, or you may not. You may have a long history of stereotyping Canada and France, or you may not. But do not use 'we' unless you actually know what 'we' stand for.

You're nitpicking. "We" = the U.S. I'm still planning on moving to Canada within a year or so, and I have 4.5 years of French under my belt. In my experience, France and the U.S. hates each other, because they are exactly the same. They both think their culture is superior, and they both think that they should be models for the rest of the world.

I actually do have a bad opinion of most Middle Eastern nations, mainly because I think they are just as corrupt and autocratic as Iraq was. But I also know that many of the people in these nations are also very good people. Most Iranians, for instance, are highly educated and well over 70% have a favorable opinion of the U.S. In a generation or two, I think that they are most likely to form a democracy all their own....that is, unless, Bush gets impatient and sends his war machinery in. But I digress...

d.) "In other words, while it is not okay for the rest of the world to stereotype the U.S., we are also not immune from doing the stereotyping."

I agree completely. But I haven't seen a lot of 'Germany sucks' or 'France sucks' posts lately. I am addressing a problem that seems to exist on this forum, in which Americans are considered stupid and ignorant on the whole, not just for electing a President not very well-liked by a majority of the outside world, but for not liking Pop, of all things. I believe America is a great country, for its own reasons, just as I'm sure many Germans have pride in their country, etc. I am not going to start tearing down other countries and their citizenry just because I may have a problem with a political policy their government might be supporting, or because some of them don't care for a particular kind of music. Stereotypes are bad. All the time. Ignorance just breeds hate, and hate is never a good thing in this world.

We cannot demand respect. We must earn it. Unfortunately, that's the way it is. I try and do my part where I can, and my last post was just that: I tried to explain where they are likely coming from, while categorically rejecting stereotypes.

But we (FYI, "we"="the U.S.") cannot sit smugly and demand respect from other nations, if we are not prepared to extend it to them. This is something we all need to work on societally, and if you have been doing your part to reject stereotypes, then great! You've got my support.

Melon

 

[cardosino]

This is just what I'm talking about.

a.) Your political opinion is your own. Bush got more electoral votes and the popular vote, so not all Americans think he's a 'generic blob.'

Bush also got a much greater mandate than Clinton ever did.

how many times did the Brits elect Thatcher anyway ?

c.) "Most Americans probably don't have one good opinion about Middle Eastern nations. We also have a long history of stereotyping Canada and France derisively."

Of course, France, Germany, Italy et al do not vote in large numbers for Neo-Nazi organizations because they long for a more tolerant and inclusive world.

I agree completely. But I haven't seen a lot of 'Germany sucks' or 'France sucks' posts lately. I am addressing a problem that seems to exist on this forum, in which Americans are considered stupid and ignorant on the whole, not just for electing a President not very well-liked by a majority of the outside world, but for not liking Pop, of all things. I believe America is a great country, for its own reasons, just as I'm sure many Germans have pride in their country, etc. I am not going to start tearing down other countries and their citizenry just because I may have a problem with a political policy their government might be supporting, or because some of them don't care for a particular kind of music. Stereotypes are bad. All the time. Ignorance just breeds hate, and hate is never a good thing in this world.

As a European who has lived in Europe for 22 years and the US for 20, I have to say I much prefer the people here. They are more tolerant, less pretentious, more honest, open and friendly. Much more down to earth definitely much more independant and harder-working.

 

[Ifeelnumb84]

Well, getting back to the original subject matter, Pop was the first U2 album I purchased. It's no Joshua Tree, but it is a very good album.
Discotheque was not that great, but if you listen to it without thinking it's a U2 song, you might say to yourself, "hey, that's a pretty catchy pop song." Mofo is experimental, badass, and awesome. I could listen to Please for hours straight and not get bored.
However, I will admit that Playboy Mansion and If You Wear That Velvet Dress were rather boring.