What happened with HTDAAB - A different perspective perhaps?

[Zoots]

 

[BVS]

Wow. I would not have expected that to come from you! After all, you seem to defend the 00s quite a bit!

I think it's funny that people think that of me. It's not that I defend the 00s, I'm just very critical of the bashing without merit. And I'm not saying that's what you are doing.

But yeah if you look back at most of my posts in those threads, you'll find that I don't defend the album as much as I'm critical of that person's paticular arguement.

Even in here, I never once used a lyric or a song and said this is good.

I think the 00s have given us some good songs, even a few great ones, but it hasn't given us a great album yet.

 

[ozeeko]

i agree Zoolesque, or whatever sorry i'm wasted, but it seems the old U2 lyrics made me feel a certain way, and affected me, while the new u2 lyrics make me feel like i'm supposed to be feeling something. there's a big difference there. feeling naturally as opossed to being felt like you should be feeling. there's a lot of forced moments like that on these couple of albums. two being:

beautiful day: when he starts singing "what you don't have you don't need it now" - it feels tagged on like some extra stuff that's supposed to me feel like ahhh i see what they're saying wow what emotion this sturs up...but i'm too distracted by what they're trying to stir up

vertigo: 'your love teaching me how - a ow - a ow...etc." that whole part is like supposed to make me feel euphoric or something i dunno, but again i'm too distracted

yea. i'm sick of playing nice. the last album blows chunks. sorry.

 

[BVS]

yea. i'm sick of playing nice. the last album blows chunks. sorry.

I'm not sure "nice" is the word you're looking for.

 

[Nisse]

Yahweh alt>Yahweh. A clearer guitar intro instead of the overproduced musical chaos of the album version.

Native Son vs Vertigo.. not so sure, Native Son is better musically except for the keyboard intro, and the lyrics aren't as poppy as Vertigo, but there is a certain charm of a stupid rock song.

Sometimes>Sometimes alt. The lyrics of the alternative may be somewhat better but the music sucks compared.

ABOY alt vs Aboy. After listening to the alternative it's I like it much more. The chorus is a bit flatter, but the album versions "aaaaaalll because of you" is more annoying.

Xanax and wine vs Fast cars. Well Xanax and wine rocks more, and I really like the "save me" chorus part. Fast Cars is cool but more of a B-side.

 

[Zoots]

Nisse, I feel just about the same way as you do!

They could have definitely left some of the alternate versions as they are and included them on the album instead of reworking the shit out of them!

 

[U2Man]

Nisse, I feel just about the same way as you do!

They could have definitely left some of the alternate versions as they are and included them on the album instead of reworking the shit out of them!

I just watched a documentary on Norwegian TV from fall 2004 just after the release of the album where Bono says that they hired CT in order to make a "rock album" full of guitars, but after one year they realized that what CT was good at, they were good at, and what he was weak at, they were weak at, so he didn't contribute enough, and they brought in SL.

I would still have loved to hear how the album would have sounded if CT had been given the chance of finishing it. I think it would have been better in various respects. Xanax and Wine

 

[Layton]

But it's ironical that they hired a Beatles producer with the purpose of making catchy music like the Beatles (as you said) and then end up firing him, because it didn't get catchy enough!

Ironical?

U2 parted ways with the alternate takes because they (Bono) still had emotional issues to sort through stemming from late 2001. Those alternates were leading to a darker and more liberal place that U2 weren't ready for and didn't feel was genuine. They properly followed their muse.

 

[Layton]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What happened with HTDAAB - A different perspective perhaps?

Well... no but, seems like they now have the widest audience that they've ever had in their career! I could be wrong but.. their music now attracts everyone from old fans to pre-teens! And to achieve that, I suppose you have to lose some complexity from your work!

I don't understand this comment. IF (and I mean IF) U2 really does have a wider demograhpic base of fans now, I think their age would have more to do with that than anything. They've had fans who've followed them for 25 years. They didn't have that in the past. So, of course there's gonna be more old fans than before.

I also don't get this complexity argument. JT is their best-selling album, ever. I'm assuming you found that 'poetic'. How do you explain that selling to the masses?

Really, Bono was only on his 'poetry' binge for UF and JT. Beginning with AB, he stopped trying to be Mr. Poet. It was about then that he became enamored with the throwaway lyrical style. It just baffles me that people really think that Bono has ever been really complex with his lyrics. Especially during the '90's.

The metaphorical content of his lyrics is always there, irregardless of being 'poetic'. Vertigo is as metaphorical as he's ever been. It's just that Bono realized he was being a bit of a poser when he was trying to write 'poetry'. Think about all the 'likes' he used to use (like a burning spear, like a fish on a bicycle, etc.). He started to sound ridiculous doing that all the time and that was the extent of his 'poetic' skills. Bono finally realized to just be himself and get comfortable in his own skin. It's interesting that some of you guys seem to like the poser stuff, better. Says alot, I think---lol.

 

[BVS]

Those alternates were leading to a darker and more liberal place that U2 weren't ready for and didn't feel was genuine.

More liberal? WTF does that even mean?

Is this your own little theory or do you have some type of source?

 

[Achtung_Bebe]

I just think that Bono's writing style is too direct and in your face, post 2000. There's nothing left to the imagination.

Well, in all fairness I think you need to consider the themes throughout the albums. The content of the post-2000 albums have been about issues that Bono (since we're discussing the lyrical aspect) would prefer not to beat-around-the-bush with. I do think that it's necessary to bring his charitable work into this... let's face it, Bono has been doing a lot outside of U2, struggling to get people to listen to issues that he feels strongly about. There's no grey area when it comes to human suffering:

Heaven on Earth, we need it now
I'm sick of all of this hanging around
Sick of sorrow, sick of the pain
I'm sick of hearing again and again
That there's gonna be peace on Earth

Besides, I don't think Bono's lyrics have been oversimplified recently. Bono's still using metaphors (e.g. Kite "blowing out of control on the breeze" = life & death) I've always seen "Kite" as a modern day "Out of Control" with very similar themes:

One day I'll die
The choice will not be mine
Will it be too late
You can't fight fate

Who's to say where the wind will take you
Who's to say what it is will break you
I don't know which way the wind will blow
Who's to know when the time has come around
Don't wanna see you cry
I know this is not goodbye

The same idea has been expressed here and I don't think the lyrics are any more simple in "Kite" than in "Out of Control." In fact Bono's perspective has only matured.

I guess I'd have to agree with a lot of what Layton said as far as lyrical complexity goes. There were the more "poetic" moments, but it's not as if Bono has suddenly dumbed down his lyrics post 2000.

btw Zootlesque I appreciate your post for initiating a discussion without all of the nastiness that sometimes come with it

 

[tommyvill]

All Because Of You (alternate) Vs. All Because Of You

Next to it
I was so close to it
I had the universe decoded
Then the atom split
[/B]

I thought he was singing
"we had the universe exploded
in the Adam's pants"!!!!


Ciao,
Tom

 

[U2Man]

 

[AtomicBono]

...so what does everyone think of the lyrics to U2's future hit Stop (The Poverty)?

 

[Layton]

More liberal? WTF does that even mean?

Is this your own little theory or do you have some type of source?

Get with the program----lol.

If I'm not mistaken, Edge has been quoted many times stating that he thought HTDAAB was going to end up more of a 'protest' album. As usual though, it took a turn toward it's final outcome relatively late in the recording process. In these times, 'protest' connotes liberal.

Also, I'd consider the stated lyrical theme of "Native Son" to be liberal-minded. Freeing an unjustly imprisoned Peltier would definately be considered a liberal point-of-view.

 

[Zoots]

...so what does everyone think of the lyrics to U2's future hit Stop (The Poverty)?

Think about all the 'likes' he used to use (like a burning spear, like a fish on a bicycle, etc.). He started to sound ridiculous doing that all the time and that was the extent of his 'poetic' skills. Bono finally realized to just be himself and get comfortable in his own skin. It's interesting that some of you guys seem to like the poser stuff, better. Says alot, I think---lol.

Why is using similies to express thoughts = poser stuff??? And great, now you're judging 'us guys'?

 

[U2Man]

Also, I'd consider the stated lyrical theme of "Native Son" to be liberal-minded. Freeing an unjustly imprisoned Peltier would definately be considered a liberal point-of-view.

Maybe you're right. After all, the boys Bono sings about in Vertigo cannot dance. I guess that makes them stiff and conservative.

 

[allbecauseofu2]

the underdog song with the best lyrics is clealy acrobat. the chrous. i consider it the prime and final word on u2's myth legend etc good bad etc everything. thier hasn't been one since before or after quite like that. and it asbence from live perfromance makes it even more alluring.

 

[Layton]

Why is using similies to express thoughts = poser stuff??? And great, now you're judging 'us guys'?

He overused similies. Being Mr. Poet didn't suit him all that well for the long-run because his skills for that stuff are limited and its not really what he's all about. He was posing as a poet because he was uncomfortable in his own skin. In other words, he wasn't being himself.

It's great that he was genuinely inspired by that stuff, at the time. Some great stuff came out of it, but it was never the real, naked Bono (U2). He (they) were hiding behind 'poetry' and 'drama'. Fortunately, they figured this out and moved on quickly (AB). It's amazing how many around here don't fully respect the artistic process of finding themselves that's taken place over the last 2 albums.

 

[Layton]

Maybe you're right. After all, the boys Bono sings about in Vertigo cannot dance. I guess that makes them stiff and conservative.

Bono's a nice guy. He's hesitant to express overtly liberal thoughts that might be construed as attack-oriented (Free Peltier) because he has to work with staunch conservatives. It just wasn't in him at the time to take HTDAAB to a darker, liberal-minded interpretation of the current state of the world.

He (they) had other ideas that they felt were better suited to the times. It would've been easier to pull out their version of American Idiot to poke and prod, but they went a more ambitious route. Bono wanted to use the emotional recovery from his traumatic event (Father's death) as a large-scale blueprint for world recovery from its traumatic event (9/11).

In other words, a recipe to co-exist. That recipe includes faith, family and finding yourself. I don't see a thematic misstep anywhere with this album. The ideas are as strong as ever.

 

[STING2]

This is by no means an HTDAAB bashing thread, just an in-depth (mostly) lyrical analysis!

This is how I see it. After bouncing back from the darkest depths of Wake Up Dead Man with the brilliant Beautiful Day and an overall optimistic and 'sunny' (but often too simplistic) album, U2 had a choice!

1. They could either get back to writing lyrically complex songs, creating great soundscapes and imagery like they did in the past... OR...

2. They could continue trying to reach the widest audience possible by creating beautiful melodies with strong sing-along verses and choruses, albeit sacrificing lyrical complexity!

Option 2 was the ticket to not just staying as the biggest band in the world but leaving no doubt in anybody's mind that they were indeed on par with the Beatles! I'm still not entirely sure which option I prefer personally. After all, I do enjoy that 'high' of being in the midst of not just the whole stadium but the whole world singing along to my favorite band. But then again, I think Option 1 could have really showcased some of Bono's best songwriting, on par with the classics!

I'm including my own descriptions of certain songs to further make my point clear...

OPTION 1 Vs. OPTION 2
Native Son Vs. Vertigo
I think Native Son's lyrics are far superior to most of Vertigo which is good fun but doesn't mean much, to me at least!

On the run... officer put down the gun
Native son... I never wanted to own one
Native son... both of us want to be someone
It's so hard... is it so hard for a native son to be freeeeeeeeeeeee?
That last line in the chorus flows so beautifully, it's awesome! Not to mention, the breathtaking 'Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...' bridge!

Then again, I prefer the more pronounced riff in Vertigo and the instrumental bridge 'without' the claps! And the line 'the girl with crimson nails has Jesus round her neck' sounds cool to sing along to! A serious rock song or a cool sounding, fun EBTTRT-ish number? I don't know.

All Because Of You (alternate) Vs. All Because Of You

Next to it
I was so close to it
I had the universe decoded
Then the atom split
What a great opening verse!!! I like how it starts (musically) without the unnecessarily ear-piercing sound from the album version. I also like how Bono sings all the lines in the chorus the same way instead of going 'Aaaahll because of you' for the second line. The excellent bridge can of course be found on the album as well!

Tough / Sometimes (alt)(?) Vs. Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own

I prefer this verse...

When I was a young boy, in the suburb of cedarwood
I wanted to be great
'Cause good would not be good enough
Now that I'm older
I don't see things any clearer
Nearer now, but still a long way off

...to the overly simple...

We fight all the time
You and I... that's alright
We're the same soul

How many times will Bono use the words 'soul' and 'kneel'? I really like the meloncholy strings in this version. I think it suits the subject matter much better than the happy bounce of the opening notes on the album version.

That said, I prefer the album version for how it really builds up towards the end... the SING verse sounds so much stronger and better on the album! Yeah, this one's a toss up!

I don't want to go on comparing the 'what might have been' songs with the 'what we got eventually' ones, but you get the drift! I guess there's good and bad in both versions. The good thing is... since most of us own all these rare songs and outtakes anyway, we can listen to whatever version we like depending on our mood.

But I still feel... nobody can deny the fact that with ATYCLB and HTDAAB, U2 abandoned lyrical complexity and art to more upbeat sing-along material that has a tremendous potential to reach the widest audience! If I had to over-simplify it... it's almost like a choice between great lyrics and great music And as it may be evident from my rambling post, I'm still unsure as to which option I prefer! How about you guys?

U2 has not abandoned anything. They have made the best album they could make it the time, which is what U2 has always set out to do each in every time they have gone in to record a new album. Keep in mind, that U2's 2nd most popular album is Achtung Baby, which go's against this theory that the band tried to reach the widest audiance possible with the recent couple of albums.

The songs from Achtung Baby got far more airplay than the songs from HTDAAB. U2 had 5 songs from Achtung Baby receive enough airplay to make it onto the US HOT 100 chart including two songs that made it into the top 10. By contrast, HTDAAB had Vertigo peak at #31 and "Sometimes You Can't Make..." peak at #97 and that was it.

Complexity is not the key to making a classic song. Its finding the right music and lyrics, complex or not complex, that produces that extraodinary feeling.

On the past couple of albums the band has written some of the best songs of their career. The only U2 albums I would put above HTDAAB are Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby.

 

[STING2]

So, to follow up my original post and try to bring it to a conclusion...

I guess, in this fast-paced, channel-changing, download crazy, I-pod sporting, short attention span world that we live in, where kids apparently latch on to a catchy riff and are content with singing along or dancing to it (judging by the popularity of hip-hop lately)... U2 had to do what they did and abandon artsy lyrical complexity and experimental soundscapes in order to reach not just old fans but a whole world of new teenage fans! Either that... or they could have remained the serious rock band that they were pre-2000... kinda like Pearl Jam, REM or Radiohead still are right now... and never have reached the dizzy heights of super stardom like The Beatles! Sometimes I wish I could go back about 10 years in time when the world of music wasn't this competitive!

The world of music has always been competitive and ATYCLB and HTDAAB are not U2 abandoning being a serious rock band. These two albums have some of the best work U2 have done in their career! Pearl Jam are still a good band, but they have yet to produce an album as good as their best work in the 1990s, same with REM.

 

[Zoots]

These two albums have some of the best work U2 have done in their career!

See... this is where it becomes your opinion! But I disagree with that statement.

 

[STING2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What happened with HTDAAB - A different perspective perhaps?

Well... no but, seems like they now have the widest audience that they've ever had in their career! I could be wrong but.. their music now attracts everyone from old fans to pre-teens! And to achieve that, I suppose you have to lose some complexity from your work!

The widest audience U2 ever had at any one time was from 1987 to 1993. The band are very close to that level currently and argueably ahead of that point in many regions of the world now, but not in the United States although their close. Achtung Baby and Joshua Tree are U2's biggest selling albums in the first year of release, and ZOO TV is still the highest attended tour of U2's career.

 

[STING2]

See... this is where it becomes your opinion! But I disagree with that statement.

And what would you call your theory in this thread?

 

[Zoots]

And what would you call your theory in this thread?

Look at the beginning of my original post. I said the words 'This is how I see it'. If that doesn't scream OPINION to you, nothing will.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I might, of course, be reading your point wrong, but in some ways I think Joshua Tree and Achtung reached out to a wider audience than HTDAAB - in a way. Plenty of arguments in here have focused on an album like Zooropa, or if you count it, Passengers, as being U2 at one end of their extreme - the least commercial, easily accessible etc etc. Albums like ATYCLB & HTDAAB are at the other end, the most commercial, 'pop', easily accessible etc etc. I think Achtung and Joshua Tree rank the highest because they are also the most in the middle. Both have the easy to accept hits, both have the more involved interesting music as well. HTDAAB at it's extreme will always sell truckloads more than Zooropa at it's extreme (and I think Zooropa was definitely given a mammoth sales boost by coming hot on the heals of Achtung/ZooTV - 2 years later it would have sold far far less) because HTDAAB's extreme is the mass market, Zooropa's is the niche.

Achtung = wider audience spread. In 1992 you would easily find Achtung Baby sitting on the shelf equally next to Bon Jovi and/or The Stone Roses in bedrooms around the world.
HTDAAB = larger core audience. In 2005 you were far far more likely to find HTDAAB sitting on the shelf next to Maroon 5 than The White Stripes.

As for radio play, different time and place. Achtungs songs wouldn't get that airplay now. HTDAAB's don't because Bono isn't 18 and hot, but they are far more likely than Achtungs just based on musical positioning alone.

 

[david]

I only hear songs from Achtung Baby on the classic rock station.

 

[STING2]

I might, of course, be reading your point wrong, but in some ways I think Joshua Tree and Achtung reached out to a wider audience than HTDAAB - in a way. Plenty of arguments in here have focused on an album like Zooropa, or if you count it, Passengers, as being U2 at one end of their extreme - the least commercial, easily accessible etc etc. Albums like ATYCLB & HTDAAB are at the other end, the most commercial, 'pop', easily accessible etc etc. I think Achtung and Joshua Tree rank the highest because they are also the most in the middle. Both have the easy to accept hits, both have the more involved interesting music as well. HTDAAB at it's extreme will always sell truckloads more than Zooropa at it's extreme (and I think Zooropa was definitely given a mammoth sales boost by coming hot on the heals of Achtung/ZooTV - 2 years later it would have sold far far less) because HTDAAB's extreme is the mass market, Zooropa's is the niche.

Achtung = wider audience spread. In 1992 you would easily find Achtung Baby sitting on the shelf equally next to Bon Jovi and/or The Stone Roses in bedrooms around the world.
HTDAAB = larger core audience. In 2005 you were far far more likely to find HTDAAB sitting on the shelf next to Maroon 5 than The White Stripes.

As for radio play, different time and place. Achtungs songs wouldn't get that airplay now. HTDAAB's don't because Bono isn't 18 and hot, but they are far more likely than Achtungs just based on musical positioning alone.

Well, forget Achtung's radio play, believe it or not, POP has actually received more radio airplay than HTDAAB. Once again, HTDAAB had Vertigo peak at #31 in on the HOT 100 and a #97 position for "Sometimes You....." .

POP had Discotheque which made it to #22 in airplay, and Staring At the Sun which made it to #26. It also had "Last Night On Earth" which made it to #74.

The fact is, POP received more airplay on the radio than HTDAAB, not to mention MTV & VH1 still played video's during normal hours back then as well. But, HTDAAB has sold more than twice as many copies than POP at a time where artist are loosing sales to "File Sharing" and CD Burning, something that was not a problem in 1997.

Your more "accessible" songs are the ones that typically receive more airplay, but as I have shown with Achtung and POP, the songs on these albums have received much more airplay than anything from HTDAAB. No U2 are not 18, but neither is Madonna(47), Green Day(average age 33), or Mariah Carey(36) and all three of them get top 10 airplay for weeks on end.

Your more likely to find a shelf that has Maroon 5 and HTDAAB on it than one with a White Stripes CD and HTDAAB because the White Stripes have not been a big seller comparitively. I know many people that own White Stripes albums as well as HTDAAB and I'd say you be just as likely to find HTDAAB sitting on the shelf with the White Stripes in 2006 as you would finding Achtung sitting on a shelf with with a Stone Roses album in 1992.

I think HTDAAB and ATYCLB have some of the most involved and interesting music U2 has ever done. Also, just because something is more accessible to the buying public than another piece of music does not mean it is less involved and less interesting, nor does something that is less acessible mean that it is superior in any way shape or form to something that is more accessible.

With Or With Out You is arguably the best song U2 have ever written or recorded, and its also their most played, well known, and popular song. No other U2 song has ever received more airplay during the year of its release or in the years since then.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

STING, do you have any appreciation or understanding of music outside of statistics?

You seem to adore the business side of music, but you would actually only manage half a day in it if you only had such an analytical approach to something that for the most part cannot be either forecast or reviewed by stats alone.