Way too much patriotism...? - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Your Blue Room > Everything You Know Is Wrong > Everything You Know Is Wrong Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-09-2001, 01:46 PM   #1
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
U2@NYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Back in Buenos Aires
Posts: 4,281
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Way too much patriotism...?

Just a thought here... after 9/11 I have seen the U.S. react in an amazing way, with lots of people giving blood, help the rescuers, put flags all over the place, etc. etc.

However, it seems to me that the U.S. is taking patriotism to an extreme. When I look at the news all I hear is:

"America strikes back"
"God bless America"
"Americans should be careful"
"Attack on America"

I am afraid that this is some sort of
'overpatriotism'. I see the 9/11 attacks as an attack on the world, and not just the U.S. People from 40 countries died in the attack and I am sure that is what the terrorists wanted. Even now, the UK, France, Germany and Australia are supporting the strikes... but all I hear is 'America'.

If you have cable, try watching BBCAmerica instead of CNN, ABC, NBC or any of the American networks. I can ensure you you will get a much more objective perspective.

Do Americans feel the same way or is this just me?
__________________

U2@NYC is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 02:36 PM   #2
New Yorker
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,637
Local Time: 06:06 AM
Its not just you. I was at a race in Indy a few weeks ago and they had this pre-show with all these American songs. Blah! I know they may have attacked us because we're American but its going to the extreme. Its as if America was the only country attacked. People, this wasn't an attack on Americans-- it was an attack on humanity. There were so many countries that lost citizens in that attack.

------------------
"Things will not be the same in this city for us." -Bono, Dublin, February 1980
__________________

sharky is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 02:43 PM   #3
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Gina Marie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bruce's land of hope and dreams
Posts: 5,404
Local Time: 05:06 AM
I completely see your point of view. But understandably, this has been an extremely emotional and wrenching experience.

Someone from my hometown was killed in one of those planes, as were dozens of people from my state. And I watch BBC and CBC to get other perspectives. We all recognize it as an attack on humanity-it was an attack on America only because it took place here.

People are searching for some way to cope with all of this-and if being 'overpatriotic' works for some, I can't fault it. Just my opinion.

Gina Marie is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 04:38 PM   #4
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by U2@NYC:


I was just talking about the press and the press alone.
.
I don't get what you're trying to say at all, then, What do you have against the American press being "patriotic"? Do you expect the press to say "let's not have too much patriotism now." That's ridiculous. Those of us who love this country (including the press!) have every right to be as patriotic as we want. Patriotism is a good thing. What is wrong with loving your country?
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 04:47 PM   #5
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,042
Local Time: 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
That's ridiculous. Those of us who love this country (including the press!) have every right to be as patriotic as we want. Patriotism is a good thing. What is wrong with loving your country?
there is nothing wrong with loving your country
I can't think of an example though where being patriotic has managed to help towards a solution

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
Salome is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 04:57 PM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
U2@NYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Back in Buenos Aires
Posts: 4,281
Local Time: 05:06 AM
80U2isbest:

One thing is saying "let's not have too much patriotism". A very different one is saying "this is America against terrorism", which is just not true.

Instead of calling me 'ridiculous' and being offensive without need, try to read beyond my words.

Thanks.

P.
U2@NYC is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 05:32 PM   #7
The Fly
 
U2Byrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Monkton, MD, USA
Posts: 153
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Now for my reply:

Gina Marie:
I have also watch BBC America and CNN International just to see how this is effecting the rest of the world. So yes, I have somewhat of an idea on what the international viewers are seeing and what they are saying.

80’sU2isBest and tackleberry:
You are welcome and yes Amen

Sharky:
I live in Baltimore in-between New York and Washington. I have been to both cities many times and yes there are some things I do not like about both cities but in all I would say I Love both of them.

I really don’t see what the problem is of Americans taking NY to their hearts. I believe that no matter what city in America where 5,000 people lost their lives in such a horrible act of terrorism that the country would be behind that city 100%.


U2 @ NYC:

"America strikes back" Yes we are striking back and yes with the help of our friends.
"God bless America" Please God always Bless America.
"Americans should be careful" Yes, America should be careful.
"Attack on America" Last but not least YES the Attack was on AMERICA’S soil and yes on humanity and yes other countries lost love ones.

I am afraid that this is some sort of
'over-patriotism'. I see the 9/11 attacks as an attack on the world, and not just the U.S. People from 40 countries died in the attack and I am sure that is what the terrorists wanted. Even now, the UK, France, Germany and Australia are supporting the strikes... but all I hear is 'America'.
If you have cable, try watching BBCAmerica instead of CNN, ABC, NBC or any of the American networks. I can ensure you will get a much more objective perspective.

America is the leader of the Free World. America is very aware that people died from 40 countries while they were here on our soil victims from a vicious attack on America “the leader of the free world”. Knock America down and all those other countries will fall with her.

I understand that you are knocking on the Press. Trust me when I say that the US press needs a lot to be desired in my book BUT believe me if America does not stand together and stand strong then the people who died from the other 40 countries as well as the Americans will not get Justus. The press is finally doing something right in my book by reminding people of their responsibility to stand behind our country and government to rid the world of this horror. I do not think 911 should be the reason for patriotism. Patriotism in my book has been way lacking in this country for years ever since Vietnam. Americans should take pride in where we live and the sacrifices that our forefathers and in some cases relatives died for so we can have the opportunity for such a great life. If France UK Germany or any other country wants to be just as patriotic I welcome it the free world should be defiant to those who hate our way of life. I for one feel the only way I can say F*** Y** Ben Laden is to stand up and be defiant of what he wanted to achieve. At football games, car races Columbus Day when ever wherever Americans are we should be united. If the American press is feeding into that then I say its about time.


IvanClaytonJnr:

I am truly sorry about your friend and I will pray he have a speedy recovery. Patriotism has nothing to do with finaticial a**h***s. That would be like me saying all Muslims are guilty of the terrorist attacks. Patriotism is not radical. It is nothing like the Nazi’s of Germany. A flag on a car or a pin and saying the Pledge of Allegiance does not mean go out and hurt someone because they are different looking. It means take pride in your country. Stand behind your goverment to defeat evil. The people who did that to your friend would do it even if people weren’t being patriotic because they are ignorant asses and should go to jail.

------------------
Dream up the kind of world you want to live in.
Dream OUTLOUD. At HIGH VOLUME.
Peace to U2 and 2U
U2Byrd


[This message has been edited by U2Byrd (edited 10-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by U2Byrd (edited 10-09-2001).]
U2Byrd is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 05:57 PM   #8
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:06 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Salome:
Quote:
there is nothing wrong with loving your country
I can't think of an example though where being patriotic has managed to help towards a solution
It helps fire up the nation into action. If our government didn't love this country (patriotism)then, they wouldn't be as apt to try to make sure that something like this never happens again.
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 06:07 PM   #9
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by U2@NYC:
80U2isbest:
One thing is saying "let's not have too much patriotism". A very different one is saying "this is America against terrorism", which is just not true.
Instead of calling me 'ridiculous' and being offensive without need, try to read beyond my words.
Thanks.
P.
I often apologize if I feel I have been offensive. But I haven't been this time. I didn't call you ridiculous. I called the desire to tone down the press's patriotism ridiculous. Like it or not, this IS "America Against Terrorism". Yes, it's also "Many Countries Against Terrorism", but be honest with yourself here. The attack happened on American soil, it was aimed at America (not the world), and the vast majority of victims were American. Do you really expect the press not to be patriotic? Hey, we lost 6,000 people here. The press is merely showing support for the nation they represent, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's to be expected, and I honestly don't understand why you have a problem with it.
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 06:10 PM   #10
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 91
Local Time: 10:06 AM
hurrah huzzah. im soo sick of patriatism for one and one reason only.

whats that reason?

mass, almost hysterical patriotism whether one likes it or not, whether it is done purposely or not, results in putting certain people ahead of others. that is not the way the human reace should work. everyone is the same, it should not make a FUCKING difference where one lives. i feel patriotism sends the signal of "us vs. them."

lets face facts people. were lucky if we live to be a 100 years old. while we are all living, and i imagine most of us are, why cant we get along? why must everything be about competition, rank and ordering?

what really makes me sick is the way people have made bin laden out to be just a homicidal maniac that just wants to kill everyone in the us for no other reason than to jack over his sick fetish.

there IS a REASON why he hates the us. there IS a REASON why people around the world hate america, but how much does america, more specifically their government, care?

i honestly believe that a backstreet boy of all people put it best. he made mention after the attacks that maybe now the us should review its foreign policy.... i think that is a must.

yes i acknowledge that us in north america have it extremely well, and we should be grateful for it. well i am. however, how much of our possesions and belongings and our very existnance has been credited to the stepping on other peoples toes.

if anyone dares to argue with me on that one paragraph, i will provide an excellent example. remember how u2's bono, you might have heard of him, vied for the us to forgive third world debts? where do you think the money goes thats been collected from the poorest of the poor?

------------------
-deathbear

[This message has been edited by Supreme Cutlas (edited 10-09-2001).]
Supreme Cutlas is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 06:21 PM   #11
New Yorker
 
*Ally*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,714
Local Time: 06:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by U2@NYC:

I am afraid that this is some sort of
'overpatriotism'. I see the 9/11 attacks as an attack on the world, and not just the U.S. People from 40 countries died in the attack and I am sure that is what the terrorists wanted. Even now, the UK, France, Germany and Australia are supporting the strikes... but all I hear is 'America'.

Although I agree that the attacks were on all civilized people, the fact is that Bin Laden and the Al Quaeda (sp?) network are basically waging this war against AMERICA. For proof, just read Bin Laden's speech from a couple of days ago (posted below). These guys are out to get the United States. That is why people- including the media- are focusing on AMERICA. Because that is the country that Bin Laden is out to destroy. His attacks are not aimed against the French, or German, or Chinese, or whoever- although I'm sure he wouldn't mind killing them, too). The main point is that he is *specifically* targeting Americans and Jews.


BIN LADEN'S SPEECH FROM OCTOBER 7th:
Text of Osama bin Laden's taped statement, aired on
an Arab television station after the US and British strikes.
The remarks refer to the September 11 terror
attacks on New York and Washington, but appear to have been
made before today's strikes.

"I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and
that Muhammad is his messenger.

There is America, hit by God in one of its softest
spots. Its greatest buildings were destroyed, thank God for that. There
is
America, full of fear from its north to its south,
from its west to its east. Thank God for that.

What America is tasting now, is something
insignificant compared to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our
nation
(the Islamic world) has been tasting this
humiliation and this degradation for more than 80 years. Its sons are
killed, its blood
is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked, and no-one
hears and no-one heeds.

When God blessed one of the groups of Islam,
vanguards of Islam, they destroyed America. I pray to God to elevate
their
status and bless them.

Millions of innocent children are being killed as I
speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins and we
don't hear condemnation or a fatwa from the rulers.
In these days, Israeli tanks infest Palestine - in Jenin, Ramallah,
Rafah,
Beit Jalla, and other places in the land of Islam,
and we don't hear anyone raising his voice or moving a limb.

When the sword comes down (on America), after 80
years, hypocrisy rears its ugly head. They deplore and they lament for
those killers, who have abused the blood, honour,
and sanctuaries of Muslims. The least that can be said about those
people, is that they are debauched. They have
followed injustice. They supported the butcher over the victim, the
oppressor
over the innocent child. May God show them His
wrath and give them what they deserve.

I say that the situation is clear and obvious.
After this event, after the senior officials have spoken in America,
starting with
the head of infidels worldwide, Bush, and those
with him. They have come out in force with their men and have turned
even
the countries that belong to Islam to this
treachery, and they want to wag their tail at God, to fight Islam, to
suppress people
in the name of terrorism.

When people at the ends of the earth, Japan, were
killed by their hundreds of thousands, young and old, it was not
considered a war crime, it is something that has
justification. Millions of children in Iraq, is something that has
justification.
But when they lose dozens of people in Nairobi and
Dar es Salaam (capitals of Kenya and Tanzania, where US embassies
were bombed in 1998), Iraq was struck and
Afghanistan was struck. Hypocrisy stood in force behind the head of
infidels
worldwide, behind the cowards of this age, America
and those who are with it.

These events have divided the whole world into two
sides. The side of believers and the side of infidels, may God keep you
away from them. Every Muslim has to rush to make
his religion victorious. The winds of faith have come. The winds of
change have come to eradicate oppression from the
island of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

To America, I say only a few words to it and its
people. I swear by God, who has elevated the skies without pillars,
neither
America nor the people who live in it will dream of
security before we live it in Palestine, and not before all the infidel
armies
leave the land of Muhammad, peace by upon him.

God is great, may pride be with Islam. May peace
and God's mercy be upon you."


*Ally* is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 06:40 PM   #12
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 940
Local Time: 10:06 AM
Patriotism is fine as long as it's not blind patriotism. 'I love my country' not 'My country is the best and I refuse to listen to anything otherwise'.

And yeah I agree that you will get better information if you steer clear of the main US media web sites/channels not necessarily because they are over patriotic or anything, but because they only seem to follow a few of the, I guess 'storylines' of this situation, and seem to be more bent on competing with each other for the slickest, best produced blah blah not necessarily the best, most detailed, most up to date information. Plus I think it's fucked if it's true that people are getting fired for even suggesting anything negative in the media (that's being blind).

And yes the US will have to look at it's foreign policy, and the whole 'west' as well. Think of it this way.... How is this 'war' on terrorism going to end? Not with a country being invaded and surrendering, not with a treaty or peace agreement between two governments, obviously this doesn't work that way...
With every terrorist you knock down, another can pop up just as fast, so to stop it, the question has to be asked "Whats pissing these people off so much?" and "What can be done to make things better?" And it's not just the Middle East, and it's not just anti-USA.

[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited 10-09-2001).]
TylerDurden is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 10:03 PM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Supreme Cutlas:
what really makes me sick is the way people have made bin laden out to be just a homicidal maniac that just wants to kill everyone in the us for no other reason than to jack over his sick fetish.
what makes me sick is that this maniac gave the orders that killed 6000 people because he think his "god" wanted him to. It also makes me sick that someone would give him any kind of credence at all. You know when is the time to start thinking about policy, if at all? After we catch this S.O.B. and destroy him and after we destroy the Taliban, and all the terrorist networks they or any otheer regime support. Bin Laden better be preparing for the hell he's about to be sent to.
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 10:30 PM   #14
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
U2Bama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine
Posts: 3,405
Local Time: 04:06 AM
I will address the "patriotism" concerns at another time, but for now, the little bit of b.s. that follows:

Quote:
Originally posted by Supreme Cutlas:
what really makes me sick is the way people have made bin laden out to be just a homicidal maniac that just wants to kill everyone in the us for no other reason than to jack over his sick fetish.

there IS a REASON why he hates the us. there IS a REASON why people around the world hate america, but how much does america, more specifically their government, care?
deathbear:

I have read quotes from The Osama both in a biography of him and in recent interviews he has given to both Western and Arabic news agencies.

Using an extremist interpretation of his religious beliefs as the basis, he and his followers do not believe that ANY non-muslim people should be allowed to live in or enter what he considers to be "the lands of Mohammed." Not just the U.S. military's presence in Saudi Arabia (the site of 2 holy sites of Islam, Mecca and Medina), but also NO non-Muslim people who may be in any of the Arab states for any reason.

He also wishes to have the "moderate" governments of several Arab states overthrown (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, even Egypt's Hosni Mubarak whom he has tried to assassinate) and replaced with strict, fundamentalist "Shar'ia" governements, which in their current form in Sudan, Mauritania and parts of Nigeria, allow SLAVERY! Yes, the BUYING and SELLING of HUMAN BEINGS is still allowed under such a system! Also, this system of law is often used to justify the worldly execution (by such means as crucifixion) of muslims who convert to any other religion or atheism, and this is in place under the Taliban.

And he does not just want PEACE for the Palestinians; he will not recognize "peace" in the area until hte Jewish people and their state of Israel are COMPLETELY removed, NOT just from the West Bank and Gaza Strip area. Presidnet Bush has recently publicly endorsed the idea of an independent Palestinian state, probably something close to what Yasser Arafat is seeking, and already drawing harsh criticism from Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. But The Osama wants to go farther and completely remove the Jewish people from the entire area, leaving a shrinking number of Palestinian Christians and Druse among the majority Muslim population.

You are correct; The Osama is not "just a homicidal maniac that just wants to kill everyone in the us;" no, he is that AND he is the equivalent of a racist tyrant like Hitler who ordered the expulsion of Jews from Europe; a Middle Eastern redneck who, under different circumstances, would find many parallels with the redneck KKK leaders from Indiana to Idaho.

Check up on him before you go around speaking on his behalf.

~U2Alabama
U2Bama is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 10:34 PM   #15
The Fly
 
U2Byrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Monkton, MD, USA
Posts: 153
Local Time: 05:06 AM
America is all they talked about. There was a very good one-hour show on Afghanistan by a British reporter on the rise of the Talibon and the repression of the country. There was a good piece on London security what they are doing and so forth. I am not seeing really any difference in the coverage.
U2Byrd is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 10:46 PM   #16
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 637
Local Time: 10:06 AM
First of all, let me start out by saying that Bin laden is nut case. He's not pissed at America because of something we did. He's got too much time on his hands and he is extremely misguided. He's saying now that he's pissed because of the state of Israel and the Iraqui sanctions. Ok, then why don't you kill Isralies if that's what's bugging you? Israel is just an excuse for him. He hates America for what the country stands for. You know why I say that? Because before these fuckheads crashed those planes into the WTCs, they were drinking beer at strip clubs and whooping it up at bars. Where does it say in the Koran to go and party with strippers? So, I feel that these people do not hate America for something that we've done (like feed the people in their country) but rather becuse America is a threat to their beliefs. If you think about it, we are exactly the opposite of what the Koran teaches. We are loud, fun and materialistic (even thought I hate that about this country.) This is a war of cultures. Like the Israelies and the Palestinans (sp), we have different beliefs and by our country's nature, we flaunt them. This pisses Bin laden off becuase he doesn't even have indoor plumbing.

Now, let me say this. To everyone who thinks there is too much patriotism I have one thing to say, LEAVE THE U.S. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! Go live in Afganistan, Iran or Iraq because you would fit in well there. This is a time for the US to come together. If you think there is too much flag waving, get the FUCK out of this country and don't come back. I guarantee that before long, you would by dying to come back to America.

So wave your stars and stripes. Wear your flag pin. Put that bumpersticker on your car. In times like this, it's those little things that help us all stay together.
wolfwill23 is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 10:53 PM   #17
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 91
Local Time: 10:06 AM
so bama and 80's what do you have to say about the sanctions that the us has imposed on iraq that are killing thousands of people, alot of them children every year? is that not barbaric? are these sanctions helping ANYTHING? if this was supposed to get sadam out of power, it clearly isnt working.

yes bama your points are well taken, and i believe you are right on the money. however, i was not talking about that in anyway. i was talking about patriotism, and thanks alot for labeling me as someone who sticks up for him. just cause i dont support war, does NOT make me a bin laden supporter. shit, thats a terrible insult. i KNOW his views on islam are extreme and that he is more or less the equivalent of the KKK to christianity, in terms of taking religion waaaay out of context.

why do people need to chose sides? why does the us say your either for us or against us? there is no doubt that i think bin laden needs to be dealt with, for what he did on the 11 of the september is horrendous beyond words. but if we deal with murders, wouldnt we have to deal with clinton who bombed a PHARMASUTICAL (SP?) plant in sudan in 98 out of the blue because he thought weapons of mass destruction were being made there. oops. we were wrong, sorry guys, we'll pick our targets better next time! no, thats not the way it works.

when are people gonna give peace a chance?
i want communication. its not overrated, youd be surprised how effective it is.

we label bin laden as a tyrant a shithead, whatever, but there are ALOT of people out there who feel the same way with america. whos right? its one persons word against the others. thats why i say stop the bombing, and go out for coffee with the enemy. vegetarian or vegan coffee for u2bama please, he only eats what u2 eats.



------------------
-deathbear
Supreme Cutlas is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 11:00 PM   #18
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 637
Local Time: 10:06 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Supreme Cutlas:
[B]so bama and 80's what do you have to say about the sanctions that the us has imposed on iraq that are killing thousands of people, alot of them children every year? is that not barbaric? are these sanctions helping ANYTHING?

We are not killing the children on Iraq. These sanctions are so Saddam can't build weapons of mass destruction. The reason the sanctions are hurting the people is because Saddam is taking every penny the country has and spending it on weapons. He does not give one shit about his people (remember the nerve gas he used on the Kurds?)

Saddam, Bin laden and the Taliban leaders all need to be exterminated.
wolfwill23 is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 11:02 PM   #19
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 637
Local Time: 10:06 AM
And let me say this, if you had a loved one over there defending YOUR freedom, woudn't it make you happy to see people waving American flags? I know it would make my days a little brighter.
wolfwill23 is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 11:06 PM   #20
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 91
Local Time: 10:06 AM
i dunno, flying flags does me nothing inside, but if it helps console you while your loved on (im assuming YOU yourself, have someone you know out there?) by all means go for it. again, i just dont want people to think that american lives or canadian or british lives are more valuable than anyone elses. i feel like sometimes thats the message we send. its only an opinion, and luckily it doesnt count for much right?

------------------
-deathbear
__________________

Supreme Cutlas is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×