Way too much patriotism...?

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Brettig is 100% correct about Austalia; they are a VERY valuable ally to the U.S., and their geography in an often hostile corner of the globe makes it an important relationship for both parties (New Zealand too, although they are "suspended" from ANZUS Treaty).

Not only were they among the first to verbally commit to helping us with this response, but they are also one of the only nations whose military has remained in the Persian Gulf with us. Thanks for your help, friends Down Under!

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bubba you are acting flat out rediculous. i will not continue to argue with someone who nows claims that i walk the line by "almost supporting bin laden."

just because i dont think war is good doesnt mean i think what he did was right!!!!! get that in your head!!!!!! we dont ALLLLLL have to look at everything the way YOU do.

i do NOT support bin laden in ANY WAY. NEVER HAVE I SAID THAT. however, just cause i dont support us foreign policy doesnt mean i hate america!!!!!!!
it just seems to me, people are not willing to go to the root of the problem, and whenever i do go there i get lambasted for it and get labeled as a bin laden lover.
please enough already.


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-death bear
 
Yes I was going to argue your points about Australia bubba, but brettig and bama did a fine job.
As far as Australia never being under threat..pulease.
Japanese submarines were in frickin Sydney Harbour during the war!

We are constantly under threat of attack from Indonesia and being so ISOLATED as you put it, actually makes us a target.
I live in the same suburb as Sydney's nuclear reactor. Just last week there were men arrested in New Zealand who were found to be on their way here to bomb the reactor.They were connected to these terrorists. No threat hey?

Australia was THE FIRST country to give America TOTAL support. Our Prime Minister offered all our troops, the same ones that were in the Gulf War, the same ones that are keeping peace in Indonesia, the same ones that have helped your country win many, many battles throughout history. You obvisouly haven't hear of ANZUS.

Our Prime Minister, Mr John Howard, you may care to learn his name, has told your government and your President that our troops will fight with you to help save and protect your country, and the free world. What America does, we do. So maybe before you start bashing us for our isolation and lack of threat, find out exactly who is on your side and why we are there.
 
Un-American Activities
By Gersh Kuntzman, Newsweek columnist


Oct. 6 -- FOR ABOUT A WEEK, I was actually proud to be an American. Watching
our nation respond with unity to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 filled me
with the feeling that we are a decent, thoughtful, caring, intelligent
people.

Well, that didn't last long, thanks to a sudden shift in the very notion of
patriotism. Now, if you aren't waving a flag, cheering every
focus-group-tested word out of President Bush's mouth or supporting the use
of force, you're a threat. You're anti-American. You must be silenced.

The examples are legion: A columnist in Texas is fired for questioning
President Bush's leadership skills; a columnist in Oregon is fired for
questioning President Bush's leadership skills (sense a pattern?); a
professor in New Mexico is disciplined for criticizing American foreign
policy; talk-show host Bill Maher -- whose show's very name, "Politically
Incorrect," warns advertisers that he aims for controversy -- loses key
sponsors because he suggested that the suicide bombers of Sept. 11 were not
"cowards"; a rap group removes a song critical of New York City cops because
it is deemed "inappropriate" at this time; conservative columnist Ann
Coulter, who urged a violent form of revenge against nations that sponsor
terrorism, was dropped by NationalReview.com; a friend of mine has been
threatened because her car bears a bumper sticker, NO MORE BUSHIT -- even
though she affixed before Sept. 11, when such criticism was tolerated.

Instead of recoiling at these attacks on that most American ideal of free
speech, our country has accepted them as part of the war effort. Indeed,
only a few card-carrying ACLU members seemed to mind last week when the
president's spokesman, Ari Fleischer (who once said that gas-guzzling was
part of the American "way of life"), warned all Americans that "they need to
watch what they say, watch what they do" in this time of crisis. (As if
evoking the specter of "thoughtcrime" from the book "1984" wasn't enough,
Fleischer fashioned himself as Big Brother, rewriting history by removing
the words "watch what they say" from the official transcript of the press
conference.)

Maybe Fleischer should have warned today's patriotic demagogues, rather than
the writers who've lost their jobs questioning our nation's patriotic
psychosis.

"I'm getting calls all day and night from people who scream at me that I'm
un-American," says Dan Guthrie, the columnist (make that former columnist)
for the Daily Courier in Grants Pass, Ore. "That doesn't bother me. It's the
death threats that get scary."

Guthrie lost his job because he suggested in print that the president
responded "lamely" because he "skedaddled" rather than immediately returning
to Washington after the attack.

Tom Gutting, a columnist with the Texas City Sun, also learned the cost of
criticizing the president. Gutting's column accused Bush of being "a
puppet... controlled by advisers" who is leading us into a war that will
solve nothing. Gutting called for Americans to "be vigilant citizens, as our
Constitution demands."

Gutting's boss had a different definition of patriotism and fired his
columnist, calling his writing "not appropriate during this time our country
and our leaders find themselves in." (Want to do the American thing and
decide for yourself? Read Gutting's column at: http://www.poynter.org/medianews/extra16.htm).

Gutting is anything but un-American. In fact, he says he is moved to tears
when he reads the Constitution. (Weird, perhaps, but certainly patriotic.)

"People call me a communist or yell, 'Go live in Afghanistan,'" he says. "A
communist?! I love this country, but there is no asterisk on the First
Amendment that says 'Except in times of crisis when you must support the
president.'"

Two hundred and thirty years ago, such subversiveness would've made Guthrie
and Gutting Founding Fathers. Today, it earns them pink slips.

But Dan Guthrie and Tom Gutting are just two small victims of our country's
orthodoxy. The bigger problem is a nation where all debate is stifled in the
name of unity -- sort of like those dictatorships that we're always
condemning.

A recent poll shows that we trust our government more now than at any point
since 1966. Doesn't that concern anyone? In 1966, trust in government was
the problem.

Oddly, most of the forced orthodoxy is coming from the right, the supposed
defenders of our freedoms. Apparently, if you live in the so-called Blue
States, you're supposed to remain silent about the president's performance
even though the people from the Red States spent the entirety of the last
presidency making as much noise as possible. Back then, such divisiveness
was considered patriotic. Now it's un-American.

While we're at it, here's my current list of thoughtcrimes:

1. I agree with Bill Maher. The men who crashed planes into
the World Trade Center were not cowards. Cowards are people
who plan such attacks from the safety of their caves.

2. Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is right: Western
civilization is "superior" to modern Islamic civilization,
where oppression, not democracy, is the rule. Free speech?
Even in supposedly moderate Egypt, the president picks the
editors of the top papers. American allies? How come
Friday-night prayers even in supposedly moderate mosques
feature the obligatory venomous attack on the United States.
(Look at me, agreeing with Jonah Goldberg of the National
Review! Isn't this a great country?)

3. It bothers me that Muslim shopkeepers who've lived in my
neighborhood for 25 years feel they must fly the American
flag so they won't get beaten up by their fellow Americans.

4. "God Bless America" is a lousy, cloying song. Give me "America
the Beautiful" any day.

Exercising my free speech (hell, I don't exercise much else) will probably
generate plenty of anger from readers. What else is new? I mean, did you
catch these recent attacks:

Conservative columnist John Podhoretz criticized a New Yorker essay by Susan
Sontag for "dripping with contempt for the nation's politics, its leaders
[and] its economic system." (Podhoretz could recognize it because that was
his role before Jan. 20, 2001.) Now Podhoretz is complaining that liberals
want to restrict free speech. But it wasn't liberals who axed Guthrie,
Gutting, and Coulter.

Steve Dunleavy, another consumer of raw meat, complained in The New York
Post about liberals, "whom I regard as traitors in this time of crisis..."
The liberals' crime? Not supporting greater access to guns. (No, really.)

Later, his Post colleague Andrea Peyser mocked pacifists as "fuzzy-headed
academics [who] must have eaten a few too many magic mushrooms." The
pacifists' crime? Pointing out that American mistakes -- such as backing
Osama bin Laden against the Russians (we called him a "freedom fighter" back
then) -- helped create the horrible world we now live in.

Syndicated columnist Michelle Malkin even complained that liberals view "the
U.S. military as an outdated, hierarchical, racist, sexist, homophobic and
imperialistic institution."

Is it un-American to point out that the U.S. military has been all of those
things at various times?

Americans should not be happy about where this "1984"-style orthodoxy will
lead. In Florida, for example, it's already being used as a cudgel against
would-be opponents to a congressional run by Florida Secretary of State
Katherine Harris.

Republican spokesman Daryl Duwe previewed his party's strategy when he
warned Democrats, who are still angry about how Harris used her office to
assist the Bush campaign last year, that bringing it up "would be a losing
strategy... Post-Sept. 11, they do not want to hear the Democrats talk
[about it]."

In other words, a terrorist who lives in a country where a man can be
flogged if his beard is not sufficiently unkempt has neutralized our ability
to criticize our political rivals. Wasn't that his goal?

But forced orthodoxy goes far beyond the public's fear of criticizing
government officials. No one wants to take chances anymore. Take a seemingly
innocuous example from this season's sitcoms. On both the supposedly daring
"Sex and the City" and the dull "Friends," sexy single characters found
themselves pregnant -- but the writers never even entertained an abortion
plotline.

Wouldn't want to offend anyone, would we? Then again, why not? Sure, people
went nuts when Dan Quayle criticized Murphy Brown -- but aren't we a better
country because he was able to say what he felt?

After all, he did turn out to be partially right. Hmm, maybe there's
something to staking out a controversial position.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/639017.asp
 
Apologies for the comments about Australia... they were directly due to Stagman suggesting that Australia is the "most Peaceful Nation on Earth".

Skeksis:

True, patriotism is strictly defined as "love of country", but our country is one of polictical, religious, and economic freedom. To me, loyalty to a nation without loyalty to the values that nation was founded on strikes me as a sign of ignorance (where the person doesn't know better) or hypocrisy (where he knows better and refuses to).

An American patriotism that embraces freedom is one that is well-informed and consistent. It may not be the only form of patriotism, but it certainly the best, and the one I hold as an ideal.

Granted, one doesn't have to agree with literally EVERY action of a country's government, but I have to think that you have to support some of the founding principles of that government, so it follows that you would have to support SOME of its actions -- its Constitution if nothing else.

I belive that "one has to agree with certain ideas in order to be patriotic". The idea that is not a logical fallacy. But that DOESN'T mean I'm suggesting that you must agree with every law and statute.

As hard as it may be to find, and as many conflicts that arise from its existence, there MUST be a core set of beliefs that are entailed with patriotism.

And while some peace supporters are certainly doing so out of self-interest or because they support peace above all things (out of religious, moral, or political reasons), there probably ARE those who belive that, as you say, "think that they have an alternate or better solution to defending our country than fighting".

In that case alone, the peace supporters are patriotic, and I apologize for suggesting otherwise. But I still believe this:

They do not understand what it takes to defend our freedoms from terrorist thugs and they are unwilling to take those measures.

I believe that it is clearly the case that a military response is THE ONLY WAY to ensure our national security -- that you certainly don't start peace negotiations at the start of a war, and you cannot successfully negotiate with people who want to destroy you.

Further, if you acknowledge that the GOAL of peace protests is to undermine military efforts, than such protests are at the moment COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the effort to defend ourselves. There are times where such protests are good, that they contribute to "the bigger picture." This isn't one of those times.

And concerning my response to your quote about "others who think not singing "god bless america" at every single public outing is an outrage"... I misread your orignal post. I apologize.

Zooropamanda, I also apologize for the "walking the line" comment, to a point. It's clear that no one in this forum, and few in the free world explicitly support bin Laden. BUT, I believe that the call for no military responses plays right into his hands.

FINALLY, I would like to point out one little thing about Kuntzman's article and the comments that parallel his:

The journalists who were fired are not suffering from censorship as they are not being oppressed by the government. Their right to free speech is NOT being infringed. Rather, Kuntzman and the "card-carrying ACLU members" are protesting the economic rights of news media editors and owners to fire who they please.

Like it or hate it, the editors are within their rights, and the journalists are not losing theirs.

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- Achtung Bubba

I believe in truth, beauty, freedom, and -- above all things -- love.
 
Skeksis:
I enjoyed your post like no other in past month. I wouldn't like to praise you too much but I realy have to - you brought back my faith in clear smart thinking of a american.
You are, what I like to call, real patriot! You obviously love your country, but you see things that are wrong or not completely all right, and you want to change them, or at least show them to others. You are not blind and you think with your head.
One other thing that your post had is knowledge about the things around you - you think for yourselfe and you don't say yes to everithing that government or media are talking - great work.
I just hope that you won't get burned for some of the things you said. Normaly, there would be no reason for you to get burned, b/c everything you said is logical, normal, natural... BUT I found here on interference that people don't want to hear diferent opinion and if they do hear it than they react agresivly. - BRAVO

One other thing - I have to thak Bubba for being here. We usualy don't get along on issues like this one, but when I neded his help concerning Interference, he reacted real quick and realy helped me. Thanx bubba

bye
 
In a nation with a free press, it is wise to keep the popularity factor in mind when "taking a side." No, these people shouldn't be "banned" or anything, but they can expect public and therefore commercial backlash for their actions. Sorry, but that's just the way it is! On a smaller level: when the Atlanta Braves faced the New York Yankees in the World Series a few years ago, it would not have been wise for an Atlanta sports writer to post an article criticising the Braves, or a NYC writer to do the same of the Yankees. There will be a backlash and he/she will lose readers and gain enemies! And it is ALSO a risk that other journalists will write articles criticizing and challenging their writings!

Regarding Guthrie and his characterization of President Bush "skedaddling" after the attacks: I was VERY glad they did not fly him back to D.C. immediately after the attack. Instead, they routed him somewhere (possibly Louisiana, but maybe not) then to a secure military facility in Nebraska. He should not have been flying straight into D.C. like a clay pigeon at target practice, and Mr. Guthrie deserves any criticsim he gets for that (but NO death threats).

Bill Maher is an entertainer; anyone who looks to his show for serious political information or guidance is lost, and he felt the wrath of his own big mouth!

This article kind of shoots itself in the foot though: with all of it's claims of injustice in the mass media, it ends up being featured on MSNBC.COM!

~U2Alabama
 
I think part of the problem is we seem to have these unwritten rules that there is only *one* way to be patriotic. According to the unwritten codebook of such things..to be patriotic means to wave the flag at all times...sing patriotic songs at all times...never critisize foreign policy or speak badly or the President...etc etc.

There is nothing wrong with waving the flag...singing the songs etc etc...but to insinuate that is the *only* way to be patriotic...and if you don't engage in such activities is somehow 'unAmerican'.

There are activists out there who are trying to make America better...they may not wave flags but that doesn't make them commie bin Ladin lovers either...it doesn't mean they don't love America. They just show their love in a different way.

Patriotism is not really an either or thing...there are degrees to it.

A lot of you know I'm a Cherokee Indian. I was never into flag waving all that much. Sorry. Didn't say the Pledge. Have my reasons. This place belonged to my people before it belonged to the world. They came here and gave it another name...which is ok. The land doesn't care what you call it. I really don't mind all these other people being here...I think God...Karma...fate...evolution...something wanted all these different kinds of people here in this place at this time for a reason. We are all supposed to be here..
I love this place more than anyone would realize...but if you judged me by my lack of flag waving you wouldn't think so...but I do.

Fly the flag...don't fly the flag...this is "America" after all.

As to the media...the media is going out to a primarily American audience...I thought of their displays as a way to make Americans feel better about themselves...not to put down any other country or to imply that any other country was somehow 'less that' America. I'm sorry if anyone got that impression...

I wish I got the BBC...they took the ITN news off my locale PBS station...and I'm mad about it!!!
frown.gif
I do check in on the BBC online site though...lots of good stuff there..

dream wanderer
 
Just an update, re: other nations haelping us:

A team of AWACS radar planes recently flown in from Tinker Air Force Base in Germany to Oklahoma to patrol American skies while our planes are deployed elsewhere. The contingent inlcudes 74 AMerican personnel, 55 German servicemen, 22 Canadian servicemen, 11 each from Belgium and Italy and 5 each from from Norway and Turkey as well as some from Turkey.

So, yes, while we work, play and sleep here in the U.S., our skies are being patrolled and protected by friends from abroad.

Thanks.

~U2Alabama
 
*claps for Skeksis

I'm glad there is someone who can argue my points, without me having to respond to every topic in this forum.

An excellent job indeed, and you have my respect.

And, BTW, Bubba. My only point I want to bring up about your flag is that it is probably a bitch for modem users to download. If you feel the need to put one up, I would suggest making it smaller. Of course, modem users can make inputs on whether that is true or not: my T3 line downloads it instantly.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 10-13-2001).]
 
A friend sent me this forward last night, and I have noticed this to be true. Never in my lifetime have I witnessed Americans so united, so caring, so nice! Even people I know who used to pack attitudes and be asses are now wearing flags on their clothes and cars and helping people. Too much patriotism? It has only been a good thing as far as I have seen, sappy as it seems.
Disclaimer: The title and some of the wording seem to be more than just a little coincidental?
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-Original message-
Subject: Fw: Fw: I wish I wrote this
>
> > > ONE
> >
> > > As the soot and dirt and ash rained down,
> >
> > > We became one color.
> >
> > > As we carried each other down the stairs of the
> >
> > > burning building,
> >
> > > We became one class.
> >
> > > As we lit candles of waiting and hope,
> >
> > > We became one generation.
> >
> > > As the firefighters and police officers fought
> their way into the inferno,
> >
> > > We became one gender.
> >
> > > As we fell to our knees in prayer for strength,
> >
> > > We became one faith.
> >
> > > As we whispered or shouted words of
> encouragement,
> >
> > > We spoke one language.
> >
> > > As we gave our blood in lines a mile long,
> >
> > > We became one body.
> >
> > > As we mourned together the great loss,
> >
> > > We became one family.
> >
> > > As we cried tears of grief and loss,
> >
> > > We became one soul.
> >
> > > As we retell with pride of the sacrifice of
> heroes,
> >
> > > We become one people.


We are

One color

One class

One generation

One gender

One faith

One language

One body

One family

One soul

One people

We are The Power of One.
We are United.
We are America.

This candle was lit on the 11th of September, 2001.
Please pass it on to your friends & family so that it may shine all across America.

"A candle loses nothing by lighting another
candle."



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***Just a U2 lovin' girl!***
 
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