U2's (and the Beatles) appetite for destruction

[Layton]

Ok, I'm going to throw a theory out there. I just want to know if you would buy or sell this theory.

Theory is: Great artistic leaders tend to subconsciously destroy their most fervent competitors.

Example 1: The Beatles. I say they literally drove Brian Wilson to the loony bin. He tried desperately to keep up with them in the '60's. He worked on Smile until it drove him crazy in an attempt to make the greatest album of all-time. It didn't come out until 35 years later. At least, I think Smile is the album I'm thinking of. Either way, I don't think it can be disputed that he was actively trying to match their greatness. Pet Sounds is a testament to that.

Example 2: U2. I say they've literally drove Axl Rose nuts. He was floored by AB and become a nutball groupie on the Zoo TV tour. From that point on, Rose vowed to make his AB, or better. Hence, Chinese Democracy was born. His attempt to make the greatest album of all-time and to keep up with U2. It's become his Smile. 14 years and probably another 21 until he clears his mind enough to finish it.

So, are the Beatles and U2 the great destroyers of the Rock era?

Do you buy or sell the idea that there's a parallel between the Brian Wilson story and the Axl Rose story?

Do you buy or sell the idea that the Beatles and U2 are responsible for Wilson and Rose's demise, to some degree?

 

[Tarvark]

I dont buy the U2 and GNR connection at all.

I think sometimes standards are set, by others and your self and that can be maddening. But thats inevitable.

 

[BVS]

Entertaining theory...

But I don't buy it at all.

Any artist who creates their art purely by a competitive motivation isn't worth their salt.

 

[xaviMF22]

there's no parallel between U2 and GnR or Axl Rose. Axl Rose's ego destroyed his band not Achtung Baby.

 

[theu2fly]

I think it will happen with Coldplay, they'll want to make a record like U2. It will drive Chris insane.

 

[babyman]

I think it will happen with Coldplay, they'll want to make a record like U2. It will drive Chris insane.

He will start painting his hair black

 

[clarityat3am]

 

[AtomicBono]

He will start painting his hair black

as long as he doesn't start wearing leather pants...

 

[Canadiens1131]

Any artist who creates their art purely by a competitive motivation isn't worth their salt.

Going by your theory then, any Paul McCartney / John Lennon Beatles songs are shit, correct?












EDIT: Okay so you said purely, but still it's something to mull over

 

[corianderstem]

Example 1: The Beatles. I say they literally drove Brian Wilson to the loony bin.

While I agree that there was competition, I'd say the reasons Brian Wilson went loony had nothing to do with The Beatles.

I don't know Wilson's bio like the back of my hand or anything, but I'd say too many drugs and an overbearing/abusive father had the most to do with it.

But yeah, the album you're thinking about is Smile.

 

[GibsonGirl]

I think it will happen with Coldplay, they'll want to make a record like U2.

Hang on a minute. Hasn't this already happened?

 

[david]

I remember reading that Axl thought One was one of the greatest songs he ever heard. I don't remember reading about him being obsessed with U2 after that or becoming a nutball groupie.

 

[sjakie]

I remember that he started out chinese democracy as a sort of achtung baby, then
later on he became hooked by another band and try to make an album that sounded like that etc etc.

 

[Layton]

I remember reading that Axl thought One was one of the greatest songs he ever heard. I don't remember reading about him being obsessed with U2 after that or becoming a nutball groupie.

He definately became a follower for a spell on the Zoo TV tour. I think he even appears for a quick second in the 'Wild Horses' video. I think it's Flanagan's book that points out that U2 was getting a little weirded out by the attention he was giving them.

Most signs point to Chinese Democracy being his response to AB. Over time, he realized he couldn't do it and started to crack. I'm sure his lifestyle had alot to do with it, just like Wilson's lifestyle. Yet, their rivalry with the best of their generation helped precipitate their demise into nutso land.

 

[david]

Yeah, I only remember reading that Axl was heavily influenced and obsessed with NIN at the time.

"NIN was proving vastly influential on a new crop of bands; major labels signed up industrial metal outfits like Filter and Stabbing Westward, and an assortment of alternative metal bands started grafting industrial production flourishes onto their music; Guns N' Roses lead singer Axl Rose even fired the rest of his band and holed up in a studio to pursue a more NIN-influenced direction."

 

[Sting]

I think Axl was incredibly impressed by AB... but he started wanting it farther and farther... which is when Slash finally left(I think it was like "I want to quit Axl" "YOU CANT QUIT - YOUR FIRED!"... kind of thing).

Slash probably would have stayed if the record was like a mix of Guns N Roses and the industrial/dance/techno influence that U2 used... just as AB was a mix of U2 and the industrial/dance/techno influence... but unfortunately, Axl wanted to take it even farther(as his love for NIN showed).

now he is crazy

 

[Bono's shades]

You don't know a whole lot about mental illness if you think the Beatles were responsible for Brian Wilson's condition.

And Axl Rose would have sunk under the weight of his own ego and delusions even if he'd never heard of U2.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Ok, I'm going to throw a theory out there. I just want to know if you would buy or sell this theory.

Theory is: Great artistic leaders tend to subconsciously destroy their most fervent competitors.

Example 1: The Beatles. I say they literally drove Brian Wilson to the loony bin. He tried desperately to keep up with them in the '60's. He worked on Smile until it drove him crazy in an attempt to make the greatest album of all-time. It didn't come out until 35 years later. At least, I think Smile is the album I'm thinking of. Either way, I don't think it can be disputed that he was actively trying to match their greatness. Pet Sounds is a testament to that.

Example 2: U2. I say they've literally drove Axl Rose nuts. He was floored by AB and become a nutball groupie on the Zoo TV tour. From that point on, Rose vowed to make his AB, or better. Hence, Chinese Democracy was born. His attempt to make the greatest album of all-time and to keep up with U2. It's become his Smile. 14 years and probably another 21 until he clears his mind enough to finish it.

So, are the Beatles and U2 the great destroyers of the Rock era?

Do you buy or sell the idea that there's a parallel between the Brian Wilson story and the Axl Rose story?

Do you buy or sell the idea that the Beatles and U2 are responsible for Wilson and Rose's demise, to some degree?

this theory holds a lot more water than the countless uno, dos, tres catorce bullshit threads we've had.

possible

 

[popacrobat]

Re: Re: U2's (and the Beatles) appetite for destruction

this theory holds a lot more water than the countless uno, dos, tres catorce bullshit threads we've had.

possible

what do you think bono meant by that anyway? i've always been mistaken, i dont think ive seen a thread on that yet.

 

[cypress]

I don't know much about Axl Rose other than Appetite for Destruction was a great album. I do, however, see definate parallels between U2 and The Beatles. I think they are the two greatest bands of all time and their music evolved nicely as time went on.

Sadly, the Beatles broke up way too early. So I often view U2 as a kind of "what could have been" had the Beatles stayed together for 30 years. I also think that may fuel some of the bond between McCartney and U2. Methinks he may see U2 in much the same light as I do.

 

[Sting]

Slash said anytime Axl wants to play Rock music again, Slash will be there.

Axl is a genius musically(the change from Appetite For Destruction to Use Your Illusion was incredibly fast and the results were quite amazing... who knows what they would have sounded like if Axl continued) but he is a total moron as a person and I think Slash/Duff/Matt were better off going on to do Velvet Revolver.

The Beatles weren't around long enough... just like Nirvana and just like The Doors(Jim Morrison's The Doors)...

What I just said has very little to do with the subject but I thought I should say it.

 

[Layton]

"NIN was proving vastly influential on a new crop of bands; major labels signed up industrial metal outfits like Filter and Stabbing Westward, and an assortment of alternative metal bands started grafting industrial production flourishes onto their music; Guns N' Roses lead singer Axl Rose even fired the rest of his band and holed up in a studio to pursue a more NIN-influenced direction."

Like Sting said, AB started Axl's obsession with creating the ultimate Rock album. This stuff you're quoting is a few years after his U2 fixation.

 

[Layton]

You don't know a whole lot about mental illness if you think the Beatles were responsible for Brian Wilson's condition.

And Axl Rose would have sunk under the weight of his own ego and delusions even if he'd never heard of U2.

Ok, I'm no expert on mental illness, but let me throw this out there just to entertain you.

There's no question Wilson and Rose's illness would've manifested itself at some point, with or without their professional rivalries. Usually, one can stay balanced when things are going well, like professional success. Which, both Wilson and Rose enjoyed alot of, prior to their meltdowns.

All, I'm saying is that is that once their perception of their own professional success came into question, the meltdown process began. Most would be able to stay in balance under this kind of duress, but Wilson and Rose's illness couldn't take the duress. Thus, mental imbalance appeared.

I think the evidence is obvious that Wilson and Rose's perception of their own professional success was challenged by the Beatles and U2, respectively. Basically, the Beatles and U2's greatness indirectly caused the professional duress that led to the manifestation of Wilson and Rose's pre-existing dispostion to go cuckoo.



LMAO!!!! You damn well better be entertained by that because that was not easy to dream up.

 

[Bono's shades]

Ok, I'm no expert on mental illness, but let me throw this out there just to entertain you.

There's no question Wilson and Rose's illness would've manifested itself at some point, with or without their professional rivalries. Usually, one can stay balanced when things are going well, like professional success. Which, both Wilson and Rose enjoyed alot of, prior to their meltdowns.

All, I'm saying is that is that once their perception of their own professional success came into question, the meltdown process began. Most would be able to stay in balance under this kind of duress, but Wilson and Rose's illness couldn't take the duress. Thus, mental imbalance appeared.

I think the evidence is obvious that Wilson and Rose's perception of their own professional success was challenged by the Beatles and U2, respectively. Basically, the Beatles and U2's greatness indirectly caused the professional duress that led to the manifestation of Wilson and Rose's pre-existing dispostion to go cuckoo.



LMAO!!!! You damn well better be entertained by that because that was not easy to dream up.

Do you have any actual quotes from Brian Wilson about his desire to compete with the Beatles or any actual quotes from Axl Rose about wanting to compete with U2? Just because an artist admires someone else's work doesn't necessarily mean they are obssessed with trying to match or exceed it. Brian and Axl may have had such a hard time making albums because they were haunted by their own previous success and were afraid they could never top it.

 

[Layton]

Do you have any actual quotes from Brian Wilson about his desire to compete with the Beatles or any actual quotes from Axl Rose about wanting to compete with U2? Just because an artist admires someone else's work doesn't necessarily mean they are obssessed with trying to match or exceed it. Brian and Axl may have had such a hard time making albums because they were haunted by their own previous success and were afraid they could never top it.

There's tons of journalism about a Beatles/Beach Boys rivalry. It was friendly, but it was also intense. Sgt. Pepper's was a direct answer to Pet Sounds or maybe the other way around, I can't remember. Smile was going to be Wilson's ultimate answer.

Now U2 and GNR didn't have much of a rivalry, per se. Yet, Rose's obsession with AB and Zoo TV was well-chronicled, at the time. He followed them around on that tour for some shows trying soak it all in. I think Flanagan's book has some stuff on this. It mentions how U2 was getting a little weirded out by the attention he was giving them, if I remember right. Out of all of this, Chinese Democracy was initiated as Rose's ultimate answer.

 

[Lewis12]

Yeah I like those parallels. They may not be 100%, but you are on to something. The Beatles and Wilson most definitely. But the other problem with Wilson is that he had no where near the original and artistic talent as the Beatles. He was a Beach Boy, a fluff band trying to catch an archetypical band such as the Beatles. Surfing bands are not on the same level. But Bob Dylan was not destroyed by the Beatles, nor the Who, etc.

Axle. Yeah, I remember him jumping on the U2 bandwagon -- Eddie Vedor too! Pearl Jam was vying to be America's U2 (I don't mean they were copying U2), but U2's internal and musical strength, has outlasted most others. How much it destroyed others? That's hard to say.


One thing is for certain though, Brian Wilson let himself get destroyed by the Beatles, and he turned into a jerk about it; he still yaps about it non-stop, as if he was in their league -- not. Constantly equating his failure to the Beatles Sgt. Pepper doesn’t mean he too had a Sgt. Pepper equivalent.

 

[Layton]

One thing is for certain though, Brian Wilson let himself get destroyed by the Beatles, and he turned into a jerk about it; he still yaps about it non-stop, as if he was in their league -- not. Constantly equating his failure to the Beatles Sgt. Pepper doesn’t mean he too had a Sgt. Pepper equivalent.

Yeah, the literature on the Beatles/Wilson thing is enormous. The U2/Axl thing doesn't get as much play in the media so maybe I'm stretching a bit. Yet, there's no denying Axl's turn and GNR's demise can be traced to 1992-93 (Montreal fiasco) and Axl's U2 fixation was a big part of 1992-93 for him.

 

[Lewis12]

Do you have any actual quotes from Brian Wilson about his desire to compete with the Beatles or any actual quotes from Axl Rose about wanting to compete with U2? Just because an artist admires someone else's work doesn't necessarily mean they are obssessed with trying to match or exceed it. Brian and Axl may have had such a hard time making albums because they were haunted by their own previous success and were afraid they could never top it.

Quick one here in regards to Wilson: Yeah, he definitely was bitter and very, very adamant when it comes to the Beatles vs. Beach Boys. That dispute can be seen in interviews and found on the web. It's actually well known (me speaking as an old man now); He's mellowed a bit of course.

 

[Acrobat_Al]

He will start painting his hair black

What hair?¿?¿?¿?

There's isn't much left...

 

[Rafiennes]

Brian Wilson and Axl Rose are very much sane.
We're all mentally ill.

Makes ya think, don't it?