U2 Dissertation

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Yeah I agree that it's a catch 22. Whatever celebs do, it's like they can't win! Donate to charity and people are like "hypocrite living in big mansions" or whatever and if they don't donate then obviously they're gonna get slammed again. But the thing with Bono is... and hear me out on this... I think he makes it worse with his image and his sunglasses for instance. Granted, he has every right to dress how he wants and portray the image he wants cos he earned it! But I think a more humble look/image would get him more respect.
 
Zootlesque said:
Yeah I agree that it's a catch 22. Whatever celebs do, it's like they can't win! Donate to charity and people are like "hypocrite living in big mansions" or whatever and if they don't donate then obviously they're gonna get slammed again. But the thing with Bono is... and hear me out on this... I think he makes it worse with his image and his sunglasses for instance. Granted, he has every right to dress how he wants and portray the image he wants cos he earned it! But I think a more humble look/image would get him more respect.
Click to expand...

He earns the respect of the people he works with despite the image and he deliberately keeps the "rock star" image as a defense against the kind of Jesus or Saint Bono image that he got saddled with in the 80's. He says all the time that he reserves the right to be ridiculous and to disappoint people. He refuses to be kept on the pedastal people keep trying to put him on. If he wasn't being lambasted for the sunglasses and the rock star image he'd be getting laid into for being "righteous" or "holier than thou" as he was in the early 80's. The "rock star" thing is much more effective because it gets past people's defenses or they underestimate him (especially the politicians) and then he blows them away with his depth of knowledge. He knows exactly what he is doing with his image and walks a very fine tightrope. Notice how in the last few years although he has kept the sunglasses he dresses much more like a businessman for the most part. Barstool philosophers and internet bashers aside you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who has actually worked with the man who doesn't have enormous respect and admiration for him. I've tried, but all the naysayers have either never met him, only met him peripherally or have an axe to grind of their own. I've spent the last two years online trying to find legitimate beef's with him and by and large haven't.

Dana
 
Zootlesque said:
Yeah I agree that it's a catch 22. Whatever celebs do, it's like they can't win! Donate to charity and people are like "hypocrite living in big mansions" or whatever and if they don't donate then obviously they're gonna get slammed again. But the thing with Bono is... and hear me out on this... I think he makes it worse with his image and his sunglasses for instance. Granted, he has every right to dress how he wants and portray the image he wants cos he earned it! But I think a more humble look/image would get him more respect.
Click to expand...

Umm..Bono usually dresses like either an average joe, a slob, or a blind man, and he wears sunglasses because of eye problems.

:shrug:
 
Luckily politicians and decision makers don't seem to care about the sunglasses.
 
One of the arguments I have heard for why people are cynical or sceptical about Bono's charity work is the extent of publicity he courts/receives whilst doing it. I think they're suspicious of his motives. To be fair Bono has said that ego plays its part in his work.

People tend to respect celebrities who do a great deal of charity work, but keep it very subtle and understated, i.e: draw as little attention to it as possible. I think they feel that those kind of motives are much more genuine.

Ultimately in doesn't bother me why Bono's doing the things he's doing as long as it actually achieves some good in the end.
 
DevilsShoes said:
One of the arguments I have heard for why people are cynical or sceptical about Bono's charity work is the extent of publicity he courts/receives whilst doing it. I think they're suspicious of his motives. To be fair Bono has said that ego plays its part in his work.

People tend to respect celebrities who do a great deal of charity work, but keep it very subtle and understated, i.e: draw as little attention to it as possible. I think they feel that those kind of motives are much more genuine.

Ultimately in doesn't bother me why Bono's doing the things he's doing as long as it actually achieves some good in the end.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but those people are usually the ones who think Bono is doing it to GAIN publicity for himself when in reality the only reason the press is even there is because it's Bono. They have no clue how much he does that isn't publicized and they don't try to find out. They simply assume that the cameras are there already and heres Bono sticking his face in front of them, entirely missing the point that the cameras wouldn't be there at all if Bono wasn't.

For instance most people don't know that he gives lots of speeches and presentations to groups where he specifically insists on no press. A lot of organizations want him to speak so they can get attention for themselves by saying Bono was here. He whittles it down to those who really want to hear what he has to say with press blackouts and non-disclosure agreements. Most people don't know that besides meeting with all these politicians for photo ops he is also meeting with administrators and staffers who are usually totally ignored by the typical 'celebrity diplomats'. Not to mention the typical Washington social circuit and dinners and such. What we see in the press is the barest tip of the iceberg of his commitment. In the opening chapter of Noreena Hertz book "The Debt Threat" there is the very illuminating story of just how much behind the scenes stuff was going on during the recording of ATYCLB while Bono was working on debt cancellation with the Clinton Administration. Bono has been juggling two full time jobs for coming up on 10 years now and there is no sign of him fading away from either.

Dana
 
Dana, you are absolutely right, and that's something we all need to remember about Bono. He does so much that never gets into the papers or splashes all over the internet. And really people, don't you think there are easier ways of getting media attention? He's a famous rock star, he doesn't need political activism to get airtime!

I would also like to point out then that he's not trying to get publicity for himself and heroic charitable deeds, but for awareness of the emergency of global extreme poverty. Reporters may focus on Bono and "Bono's work" and debate that (and thus, so do we) because he's the famous one and will catch viewers, but Bono hardly ever wishes to talk about himself in those circumstances. He talks to the media to get the message out on the issues and raise awareness and action from the people watching.

It always surprises me when people here on the board don't seem to be able to see through how the mass media can portray him, or critiques by the non-fan general public who don't know a thing about him. It's like a lot of people have bought into that and have come to believe it. All I'm saying is that as fans, shouldn't we know better?
 
Zootlesque said:
Yeah I agree that it's a catch 22. Whatever celebs do, it's like they can't win! Donate to charity and people are like "hypocrite living in big mansions" or whatever and if they don't donate then obviously they're gonna get slammed again. But the thing with Bono is... and hear me out on this... I think he makes it worse with his image and his sunglasses for instance. Granted, he has every right to dress how he wants and portray the image he wants cos he earned it! But I think a more humble look/image would get him more respect.
Click to expand...

I agree with some of what you have said and Bono, for the sake of dispute, lives somewhat modestly in Ireland, as compared to the celebs here in the States. You know, folks in the same income bracket. His home is a nineteenth century estate, not Huge Heftner's playboy mansion.

I understand why he wears shades. My eyes are also, light sensitive. They literally start burning, if I don't wear them on especially the sunny days. Sometimes, I have to wear shades on cloudy days. All seasons.
 
COBL_04 said:
'Dissertation' sounds like a word Bono could slip into Bad live... :tongue:
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No dissertation...
PUBLICATION!
ACCREDITATION!
LET IT GO! AND SO FADE AWAAAAY!

- Bono, on being rejected from the academic community
 
DevilsShoes said:
One of the arguments I have heard for why people are cynical or sceptical about Bono's charity work is the extent of publicity he courts/receives whilst doing it. I think they're suspicious of his motives. To be fair Bono has said that ego plays its part in his work.

People tend to respect celebrities who do a great deal of charity work, but keep it very subtle and understated, i.e: draw as little attention to it as possible. I think they feel that those kind of motives are much more genuine.

Ultimately in doesn't bother me why Bono's doing the things he's doing as long as it actually achieves some good in the end.
Click to expand...

i agree with dana's take on this, but would also add how effective would the one campaign be if he did everything for it in secret? isn't a large part of what he does to raise awareness, and get as many people involved as possible? he often talks of using the absurdity of celebrity to shine a light on the horrors that are going on. if he was ultra secretive about everything he did, there would be whole lots less publicity for the actual cause.

i think most people who like to bash him, and make fun of his charity work and not stopping to listen to what he is actually saying.

a little off topic, but the bashing for about being a hypocrite living it up, and then lobbying for the poor. is the alternative of doing nothing better? or does anyone stop to ask what percentage a really wealthy person gives away. if bono gives away 20% of what he makes (i have no idea what he gives) but that is more than 99% of all 'average' people do, and its a whole lot more money. that doesn't even begin to touch on the time he gives, compared to just about all people.

i recently was disturbed to hear a certain christian musician that i know (not well at all he is more friend of a friend), made over a million dollars last year and now drives a 100k land rover. it really bothered me (for may reasons i won't go into), but then i realized that this guy spent a 1/10th of what he made on car. i spent a lot more than that (% of income wise) on my wife and i's vehicle. the bottom line, is its easy to point the finger and call someone a hypocrite, but if you examine your own life with the same standard that you hold others to, you will have little ground to stand on.
 
jphelmet said:
i agree with dana's take on this, but would also add how effective would the one campaign be if he did everything for it in secret? isn't a large part of what he does to raise awareness, and get as many people involved as possible? he often talks of using the absurdity of celebrity to shine a light on the horrors that are going on. if he was ultra secretive about everything he did, there would be whole lots less publicity for the actual cause.

i think most people who like to bash him, and make fun of his charity work and not stopping to listen to what he is actually saying.
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:up: This was my point exactly. Fundamentally, it's because Bono doesn't do "charity work", it's activism, and you just don't do activism quietly. That would sort of defeat the purpose. :)
 
Rosebud said:
:up: This was my point exactly. Fundamentally, it's because Bono doesn't do "charity work", it's activism, and you just don't do activism quietly. That would sort of defeat the purpose. :)
Click to expand...


Well, actually, Bono does both, but they don't talk about the charity work because they believe in the biblical directive of the left hand shouldn't know what the right hand is doing. In other words the charity is done completely privately and anything that he or they publicize they no longer consider charity. The problem is that most people assume that everything Bono does is publicized so if they don't see reports of him giving money they believe it doesn't happen. The only time the band itself will publicly declare any charitable donations is when it is done specifically to challenge or encourage others as with the Live 8 donations. Bono talks about this in the Music Express interview with Dave Fanning. Fanning asks them why they don't defend themselves against all the comments that they don't give their own money and Bono says that if you publicize then it is not charity but advertising. He jokingly says that if he gave all his money away it would only make him a bigger star.

The other thing that people tend to forget is that while some celebrities attach themselves to causes in order to polish their image many more of those connections are made at the behest of the charities themselves because they need the attention of the media that celebrity involvement brings. The challenge for the charity is in choosing a celebrity who won't end up doing more harm than good.

I've recently come to realize that the reason that U2 and Bono pay no attention to the bashers is that it is their cross to bear, so to speak. Jesus tells his followers that in following him they will be persecuted and reviled and sometimes even killed. Bono has shown a remarkable ability to shrug off the naysayers and not get caught up in and endless cycle of defending himself against these criticisms.

By the way, for anyone interested there is a great book called 'Celebrity Diplomacy' by Andrew F. Cooper that takes a detailed look at the role of celebrity diplomacy from some of the earliest like Danny Kaye and Audrey Hepburn to those of today. Bono gets an entire chapter and is actually the gold standard against which all the others are measured. It's a really interesting read and covers the positive and negative aspects of celebrity involvement. It gives a great picture of the true level of respect that Bono enjoys in the political world and why he deserves it.

Dana
 
thanks for the book recommendation Dana, I'll check that one out. :wave:

And I totally agree with you about the charity thing; I'm sure Bono gives enormously of his own resources, and it's simply not publicized (and rightly so). I was just referring to the sort of work which we're debating, and trying to make the point that it's campaigning, not charity as many people call it. People just hear "Africa" and "poverty" and label it charity work - they haven't woken up to this as a social and political movement. I think if people could understand this distinction, there would be a lot less negativity towards the B-man, and an appreciation for the media attention rather than a hostility against it.
 
Rosebud said:
thanks for the book recommendation Dana, I'll check that one out. :wave:

And I totally agree with you about the charity thing; I'm sure Bono gives enormously of his own resources, and it's simply not publicized (and rightly so). I was just referring to the sort of work which we're debating, and trying to make the point that it's campaigning, not charity as many people call it. People just hear "Africa" and "poverty" and label it charity work - they haven't woken up to this as a social and political movement. I think if people could understand this distinction, there would be a lot less negativity towards the B-man, and an appreciation for the media attention rather than a hostility against it.
Click to expand...


Yeah, it's like how no matter how many times Bono explains that (RED) is a brand that is licensed like any other brand as well as a business model not a charity everyone still calls it Bono's charity. (RED) is the business model and The Global Fund is the "charity" that benefits. ONE is also miscast as a charity rather than a campaign partly because of the association with charities like World Vision and Bread for the World and the others under the umbrella. But the distinction between being a movement and being a charity is lost. I've even seen reporters refer to EDUN as a charity because of the ONE t-shirt.

This kind of things relates back to what I see as a general problem with communication in that people are not careful to say what they mean. They'll throw out something that kind of sounds right in a general way and if you correct them, rather than internalizing it they just shrug it off with a "you know what I mean" comment and continue using the same wrong descriptions. Or they'll respond to your clarification with an exasperated "That's what I said." when it really wasn't what they said. Our conversations are as sloppy as our spelling these days only we don't have conversation checkers to clean up our act.

The really sad thing is the state of journalism these days. You've got reporters on TV who can't string a sentence together without a teleprompter and the whole notion of fact checking seems to have disappeared from reporting in general. A good part of the reason that Bono's work is so misunderstood is because of the crap reporting. I really feel for him when I see him struggling with some clueless reporter who just can't seem to get it to save their life.

Dana
 
Just a thought but since the thread was actually meant to provide the link about the dissertation and seems to have been totally sidetracked by the discussion about the post (which really wasn't all that interesting) has anyone looked at the dissertation at all? I've been reading it and even though most of it is greek to me because I have no formal music or music theory background there is still some interesting information to be gleaned from it. I'd love it if someone else reads it too so we can talk about it.

Dana
 
I've tried to get through that dissertation, but it's just too much for me lol
from what I read I do think it's commendable that a pretty good job is done to keep this from being the work of a fan and instead keeping an eye on academic requirements
 
Salome said:
I've tried to get through that dissertation, but it's just too much for me lol
from what I read I do think it's commendable that a pretty good job is done to keep this from being the work of a fan and instead keeping an eye on academic requirements
Click to expand...

I don't know if you got far enough but in talking about the formal structure of songs he says that of the 125 songs he analyzed the same formal structure is never repeated. I thought that was quite interesting. Also traditionally the sections of songs are usual 4 or 8 measures or multiples of those numbers but U2 frequently has abnormal sections lengths. He defines 10 different qualities that through analysis were determined to be the most frequently occuring and so would define "the U2 sound" and surprise, surprise the most frequently occuring has to do with Adam's bass playing and the second is a quality of Larry's drumming but Edge's guitar only factors in third. So to all those idiots who think Larry and Adam are disposable I could enjoy throwing this at them.

Each of the four members has a quality to input that is unusual or uncommon for musicians to do but is an intergral recurring factor for them. It seems to me that these are things they were able to hit on precisely because they lacked very much in the way of formal training. Even though Larry and Edge to some extent had music lessons they both did not take well to the formalized structure of music so they never became locked into particular patterns. It's not that traditionally trained musicians can't break out of the box but rather that they have to work very hard to conciously do it whereas since the guys in U2 were never locked into the box in the first place they have more freedom creatively. I think other musicians recognize this quality because I remember reading that Edge once commented to one of the Dubliners (I think) that he wished he could read music better and the guy said if he ever saw Edge with a piece of sheet music he'd break his legs. In other words don't give up the advantage. Over time of course they have picked up more which is probably why they still have to struggle. Bono commented that the better you get at your craft the harder it is to get to great because it's easier to reach good and it's easy to get lazy.

Dana
 
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