Songs of Experience - Part V

[Hollow Island]

Did he? Can you explain?

there's an earlier, Danger Mouse produced version that leaked last year. the album version is better.

 

[Hollow Island]

I know "Accessible" and "dumbed down" aren't technically equal but I consider them pretty much synonymous with each other


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They are, and it's pretty condescending way for an artist to operate. Like they have to try to make their brilliant work understandable to the common man.

I have a feeling that none of the albums that were hugely important or are regarded as the best - late 60s Beatles, millennial Radiohead, mid 60s Dylan, Joy Division, Exile on Main St, the Velvets, Berlin Bowie, prime U2, etc - were made with "accessibility" in mind.

 

[trevgreg]

Did he? Can you explain?

I think from interviews, they said that Tedder primarily brought in the ideas to move up what was then the middle 8 of EBW to the chorus, then created the melody line that’s played over that chorus (which I assume is Edge’s lead guitar part over it on the studio version).

It’s hard to know without actually hearing what the song originally sounded like in a studio capacity during the early SOI/NLOTH sessions, but I’d say those were pretty decent changes/additions.

there's an earlier, Danger Mouse produced version that leaked last year. the album version is better.

My impression was that it was an alternate take of the song recorded after Tedder made the above changes.

 

[blueskies]

there's an earlier, Danger Mouse produced version that leaked last year. the album version is better.

Ah ok. I don't know that version. Is there anwhere I can listen to it?

 

[aMansAman]

Why do you say "last year" ? When talking about the "other" version of EBW?

They played Every Breaking Wave (Pre-Tedder Version) back in 2010 on several 360° concerts - e.g. here in Vienna ( I was there)

https://youtu.be/0HwoCTlMeWc

 

[trevgreg]

Why do you say "last year" ? When talking about the "other" version of EBW?

 

[aMansAman]

Thanks for the clip - that might rightly be called an alternative mix - but the essence of Tedders work is in there already ...

If one claims that Tedder improved the song you should compare it to a version untouched by Ryan Tedder. That is the reason why I posted the 2010 version with the other chorus .. without the "if you gooo" line which was brought in by Tedder as far as I know

 

[BVS]

I have a feeling that none of the albums that were hugely important or are regarded as the best - late 60s Beatles, millennial Radiohead, mid 60s Dylan, Joy Division, Exile on Main St, the Velvets, Berlin Bowie, prime U2, etc - were made with "accessibility" in mind.

I think you'd be a fool to believe that artists don't think about the "accessibility" of their art in some form or fashion, it's just not cool to talk about.

Of course it's in mind. No one creates an album, movie, or book and thinks I don't care if anyone gets this. If you didn't crave an audience you would never seek a delivery device.

We have this romantic notion of our artists not giving a fuck and somehow because they're just genius that we flock to their art. Should "accessibility" guide their art? No. But don't fool yourself into thinking it's not thought about.

 

[trevgreg]

Thanks for the clip - that might rightly be called an alternative mix - but the essence of Tedders work is in there already ...

If one claims that Tedder improved the song you should compare it to a version untouched by Ryan Tedder. That is the reason why I posted the 2010 version with the other chorus .. without the "if you gooo" line which was brought in by Tedder as far as I know

Glad to help. For me, I’d still say it’s hard to get an idea of what an early version of it sounded like. The live version from 2010 certainly gave us good hints, but without a rhythm section and knowing that live versions can sound a lot different from any studio version it’s based on, it still leaves something to the imagination without anything definitive. Also consider how they’re playing it live on this tour as compared to the actual album version.

Could Tedder have contributed a lyric to something? Possibly, but it’s hard to tell without anyone actually confirming anything. I’d say it’s far more likely that Bono re-wrote the chorus either after the music was written or even made some changes already over time. Between a rough version at least existing in 2008 and the final version in 2014, the song had been around in one form or another for at least six years by that point.

 

[popacrobat]

There's a version with a slightly different guitar that has a "watermark" for Robin Rhode on it, who created the EBW video for Films of Innocence.

There's a different guitar in the chorus and different chorus lyric as well.

edit - a few posts late here. guess i should use the quote button. don't mind me. i'll just keep protecting this house.

 

[BVS]

That is the reason why I posted the 2010 version with the other chorus .. without the "if you gooo" line which was brought in by Tedder as far as I know

What are you basing Tedder is helping them write on?

 

[aMansAman]

What are you basing Tedder is helping them write on?

My memory of interviews in RS/Q/MOJO etc.

My personal truth was that the 2010 Version was U2 (maybe danger mouse) and the SOI Version was Tedder with the new chorus.

I could be totally wrong of course.

I just want to know how Tedder improved EBW as Hollow Island claimed.

 

[BEAL]

My memory of interviews in RS/Q/MOJO etc.



My personal truth was that the 2010 Version was U2 (maybe danger mouse) and the SOI Version was Tedder with the new chorus.



I could be totally wrong of course.



I just want to know how Tedder improved EBW as Hollow Island claimed.

He hung a poster of Wham! In the studio and made U2 record a new version of the song while staring at it


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[Mack_Again]

Artists should think about accessibility or relatable-ness when writing music because that often make album great. I think relatable struggles and messages are why Dark Side of the Moon is widely considered as the masterpiece while some KC records kinda unlistenable at times. Also records like Achttjng Baby is great because it's somewhat personal record and not trying to be other people (R&H had that "pretending" element, I thought). I mean, songs are artists' brainchildren, they want their songs to be heard by people, don't they?


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[BVS]

My memory of interviews in RS/Q/MOJO etc.

My personal truth was that the 2010 Version was U2 (maybe danger mouse) and the SOI Version was Tedder with the new chorus.

I could be totally wrong of course.

Well there is no evidence that Tedder has helped in songwriting, he even clarified as much in an interview prior to SOI release and said he was only producing.

 

[aMansAman]

Well there is no evidence that Tedder has helped in songwriting, he even clarified as much in an interview prior to SOI release and said he was only producing.

I don't know if you accept this as evidence , but as I now recall this Rolling Stone interview from May 2015 ... that sounds more than "only producing"

"I just asked them, 'Is it cool if I just butcher this thing?'" says Tedder, who alternated between joining U2 in the studio and working remotely on tracks. "And they were like 'Do your worst. Go for it.'" He added a new chorus melody, turned the old chorus into a bridge and sent it back to the bandmates.

U2: Trying to Throw Their Arms Around the World | Rolling Stone


When we talk about songwriting ... Here - according to a Berklee course:

"Songwriting: Melody"

You will learn to:
create memorable melodies

https://online.berklee.edu/courses/songwriting-melody

 

[BVS]

I don't know if you accept this as evidence , but as I now recall this Rolling Stone interview from May 2015 ... that sounds more than "only producing"



U2: Trying to Throw Their Arms Around the World | Rolling Stone

Ok, I guess i see what you're referring to, at first you mentioned him adding a line, but no I wouldn't consider this song-writing.

 

[aMansAman]

Ok, I guess i see what you're referring to, at first you mentioned him adding a line, but no I wouldn't consider this song-writing.

OK - but for me the song-writing process not just includes writing lyrics but also creating melodies. And that is the center-piece of my argument against having Tedder as a producer.

I thought they would stick to the material they did while on tour with Andy Barlow and Jolyon Thomas ... if Tedder is there to alter the melodies to be more "accessible" - that is what I don't like.

But that is just my own opinion.

At least there is a tiny U2 reference on Jolyon Thomas' Twitter account:

 

[Hollow Island]

Adding a to lyrics counts as songwriting, adding melodies counts as songwriting but it could also be considered arranging.

 

[dazzledbylight]

California is not linked lyrically to the rest of the record whatsoever. It sticks out like a sore thumb thematically.

An album about growing up in Dublin and the music they listened to and their first breaks as musicians... to a song about their first trip to California, which occurred after Boy had already been released?

You could think if California this way ... it's theme is partly about love which could be romantic, familial or friendship- think of CR - which gives the narrator hope.... A"there is no end to love ".
It's not only about growing up and becoming a band.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Anyway, I like that album but I really don't want U2 to make a more "accessible" version of it. That adjective is poison when it comes to music. And SOI is pretty fucking bland already.

Cederwood Road? RBW? Are certainly not bland.

And Iris is certainly not bland lyrically!

 

[dazzledbylight]

I think you'd be a fool to believe that artists don't think about the "accessibility" of their art in some form or fashion, it's just not cool to talk about.

Of course it's in mind. No one creates an album, movie, or book and thinks I don't care if anyone gets this. If you didn't crave an audience you would never seek a delivery device.

We have this romantic notion of our artists not giving a fuck and somehow because they're just genius that we flock to their art. Should "accessibility" guide their art? No. But don't fool yourself into thinking it's not thought about.

Oh, Amen!

It' all about the percentage, on the continium of each artist between audience &accessibility and what would be more considered "difficult, obscure, too provocative, too intellectual" , etc art.

Yes there are artists who really don't care If their work is accessible to a wide or hardly any audience. They create because the want to, have to.
They are quite more infrequent if not rare than the others.

I'm a visual artist with experience in both Commercial Art and Fine Art; having been both paid, volunteer, for pure fun, experience and experiments in both (and a wide range of sub-) fields. I have to create, and I'd like to be paid decently to fabulously most if the time.

Now, I know she's usually loved OR hated by those who know about her but the "Godmother of Punk Patti Smith" she always wanted to have some accessible hits to have her is sensibilities reach a wider audience!

 

[Hollow Island]

Cederwood Road? RBW? Are certainly not bland.

And Iris is certainly not bland lyrically!

Those are all excellent songs but they're pretty standard U2 songs. Raised by Wolves is watered down War; Cedarwood is the kind of slightly groovy rocker they've been making since Achtung.

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[Hollow Island]

Of course accessability is considered to the extent "is this cool to only us?" Which is just another way of asking "does this suck?" But unless one is a commercial artist, contracted to do a particular thing, it is artistic death to allow an imagined audience dictate what you do, particularly if you think your work needs to be made more accessible (dumbed down) for them. Most rock bands - U2 included - don't instinctually make or even like music that's challenging. OST 1, U2's most unconventional album, is much more "accessible" than records by Bowie, Radiohead, Pink Floyd, NIN...the list is long of big albums much stranger than anything U2 would do. Their "out there" music is just interesting; their purposefully accessible music is boring. They're not good enough songwriters or musicians to be a basic pop/rock band, catering to the masses.

Also worth considering is that the masses right now have horrible taste. It's not 68 or 93.

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[Headache in a Suitcase]

Welp, guess they should call it a day then

 

[BVS]

Raised by Wolves is watered down War;

Not even close. That chorus, structure wise is unlike anything they've done before.


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[corianderstem]

He hung a poster of Wham! In the studio and made U2 record a new version of the song while staring at it

He's probably the only one staring at the Wham!.

 

[JamietheEdgefan]

Or maybe it's not a concept album at all. Some of the songs stick to the concept, but half of them could fit on any U2 album lyrically and deal with standard U2 subjects and platitudes. EBW is the biggest offender to me - it' clearly a very adult song.

I agree with you and Headache about how EBW and California stick out.

EBW in particular, I remember feeling out of place in an album about innocence - lyrically it feels like an 'experience' sequel to Song for Someone.

I think the band just saw EBW as a strong tune, and one of the most likely to do well commercially, and given SoI was the 'comeback' after NLOTH, they put it in just to strengthen the album.

 

[JamietheEdgefan]

Cedarwood is the kind of slightly groovy rocker they've been making since Achtung.

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I think Cedarwood Road has some of the most distinct Danger Mouse production presence on SoI (And the best teamwork between him and the band), so I'd say that sets it apart from AB.
That 'spaghetti western' style chord progression and drums (I don't know else to call that sonic style DM uses) is largely new to the band, I feel.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Those are all excellent songs but they're pretty standard U2 songs. Raised by Wolves is watered down War; Cedarwood is the kind of slightly groovy rocker they've been making since Achtung.

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RW watered down War? Oh, pffffff!

I often enjoy experiments, but I also love most "standard" U2 songs, too.

To me a song like "Fez-Being Born" was on the experimental side. COL, too Perhaps even UC because it was somewhat different in it's call & response aspect

I wish they had done F-BB live. I loved UC live even more. And I loved most of the rest of NLOTH. I consider it their 3rd Masterpiece.