POP: What Pisses Me Off

[Dalton]

So my wife has only gotten "into" U2 in the last few years (because of me of course ) so she isn't really familiar with the whole catalogue. In order to remedy that before the new tour, she has been listening to two albums at a time for about a month and then moving on. Right now she is rotating War and POP.

Listening to both of these albums so much has made two things clear to me: one, War is unbelievably good. Larry and the Edge are phenomanal on the entire album. Two, if anyone other than U2 would have recorded POP it would be considered one of the best albums of the 90's.

The songs and melodies on the album are brilliant and haunting. The music is wonderful and the themes, while dark, are heart wrenching and truly "fuck-up the mainstream". Sure the songs and the lyrics are a bit inaccessible, but no more so than OK Computer and that gets nothing but praise (now I am not saying that POP is better than OKC, I don't think it is - but it is not that far off).


Listening to it again makes me wonder why so many people jumped off the Popmart experience. Here are my thoughts as to why POP was not as successful in the US as it should have been.

1. The Discotheque Video: Come on boys, Americans are never (EVER) going to understand cheeky. This doesn't mean they should not have made the video (although in my opinion it is terrible), but they should have made a seperate one for the US market and I believe that is why we see them doing different singles and videos here in America today.

2. The first three tracks of Disco, DYFL and MOFO just wasn't going to fly for established U2 fans. The sound is too hard and harsh. The album should have gone more like this:

1. Discotheque
2. Last Night on Earth
3. Mofo
4. Gone
5. IGWSHIA

Something like that, not the best, but something like that.

3. All of this being said, I love POP. I hope that they go back and rerecord it one day. Not because I think it needs it, but because I am interested in a new take on the music. In my mind, this album is as powerful and important as war.

 

[U2Kitten]

The first thing I have to say about this is that you are right, the first single, video and harshness of those songs did turn off a lot of established U2 fans, and did not attract enough new ones to make up for it. What has never helped, and what will never help, is for people to keep on saying how 'great' it was, leaving the impression that those who did not like it are somehow lacking, and if they listen long enough they will get a revelation and come to be like you, the Pop lover. Please accept that that is never going to happen for some people, there is nothing wrong with them, and there is nothing wrong with you. It's taste, that's all. If you knew I didn't want mushrooms on my pizza you wouldn't want to try to force them down my throat, would you? It's the same with Pop. Not everyone is going to like it, oh well.

The second thing I had to say is, does it really matter now? It's over, it's been almost 8 years, and after almost 4 years of seeing people rag on and on about this, I'm wondering when it will finally be time to get over it and let it go. The band already has, but some of the fans can't. I don't think it will ever be redone. Those of you who love it bashed the remixes on the best of, but the fact that they did remix them showed that they knew the way they had done it did not fly with a lot of fans, and honestly it shows that they as musicians were unhappy with the work and refused to re-release what they had done before.

So basically, it's in the past. It happened. We can't rewrite history, change the album or tour in the past, and most of all we can't change the minds of people who liked or disliked it. So how about we just listen to it, or not listen to it, like it or forget it, and let it goooo? U2 already has.

 

[Dalton]

So basically, it's in the past. It happened. We can't rewrite history, change the album or tour in the past, and most of all we can't change the minds of people who liked or disliked it. So how about we just listen to it, or not listen to it, like it or forget it, and let it goooo? U2 already has.

So not to start an argument so soon after Christmas, I will by pass comment on the first part of your post. My question to you is this: what is the use of a U2 Forum if we aren't discussing things like this? I was listening to war and POP this moring and I was thinking about this subject. I have not partaken in any discussions about the album and I wanted to share my thoughts with people who have actually put thought into the subject. Seems like a good post to me.

If you don't want to discuss - don't. I have no issue with that. If you don't like the album - fine. But don't jump down my throat because I want to discuss an aspect of the bands career.

 

[U2Kitten]

If you didn't want an argument so soon after Christmas, why start a Pop thread, they're guaranteed to bring disagreements. Anytime you start a thread, you have to consider that some people will not say what you want to hear. It's a chance we all take. I guess as a long time member here I just grow tired of this and can't understand the resentment people feel over fans who didn't like this album. As a fan who doesn't care for it, I just wish you'd all just let it go and enjoy the album and let others enjoy the albums they choose because it really doesn't matter.

It's like this: when you start threads more or less dissing fans who didn't like it, and leaving the impression there is something wrong with us and we need to come around, that is a bit of an insult, don't you see that? You're acting 'mad' because some fans didn't like Pop, and that there is something wrong with us. All I'm saying is we all have our own taste, and why do you even care? It doesn't matter. There are enough albums for all of us to pick and choose.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get at least a dozen other posts here saying how great it is, what genius it is and how stupid all the fans who didn't 'get' it are

 

[yimou]

I have always loved Pop. Sure i had my moments in the beginning where i thought - what the hell is going on -. But i still loved it.
The thing is that i dont try and put any deeper meaning into an album. Its just another album, and honestly then i can´t find any real reason to wanna listen to Pop, unless you feel like listening to some great tunes.
If Dalton wanna talk about Pop, then let the man talk about Pop. Sure there are alot of discussions about Pop lately. But as soon as you mention Pop, somebody goes crazy and jump all over the poor guy/girl. I DONT MEAN YOU U2KITTEN,, You havn´t gone crazy .. But its a matter of time before somebody will !!.

But i have to agree that people who love pop do try and force it a little too much on others sometimes. But its the same thing with ATYCLB ect..

Yeah, Pop is GREAT.. Nothing wrong in saying that if the person feels that way about it.

 

[djerdap]

There is nothing wrong with Pop. It is an amazing album. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

 

[U2Kitten]

If Dalton wanna talk about Pop, then let the man talk about Pop. Sure there are alot of discussions about Pop lately. But as soon as you mention Pop, somebody goes crazy and jump all over the poor guy/girl. I DONT MEAN YOU U2KITTEN,, You havn´t gone crazy .. But its a matter of time before somebody will !!.

IMO the 'poor guy or girl' is the one trying to explain to the person why what they said is unfair to other fans. There have been literally dozens of threads just like this. You cannot start a thread with the words 'Pop' and 'pissed off' in the title and expect nothing but happy responses, and no, I don't feel sorry for anyone who starts them because they ought to know that from the start. It's happened to me with other threads, you have to accept that or not bring up controversial things. But you, I or anyone else cannot open something like that up for discussion with that tone and then feel 'jumped on' when someone gives you the other side. That's what discussion is all about, you're going to hear all sides. I stated my opinion, it wasn't what he wanted to hear. But others will post, there will be all different views. If all you want is people who agree with you, that's never going to happen for any of us.

But i have to agree that people who love pop do try and force it a little too much on others sometimes.

They do, and have been doing this for years, and that's why it's so frustrating. Either this or ATYCLB bashing which is also always pro Pop and what's wrong with those fans who didn't like Pop tone too.

Yeah, Pop is GREAT.. Nothing wrong in saying that if the person feels that way about it.

Right, absolutely NOTHING wrong with saying how much you love Pop. Say it all day long, you can like what you like. But leave out the parts about how stupid the fans who didn't like it were, and how they need to listen again and come around.That's the problem here, there can be no praising of Pop without at the same time either bashing ATYCLB or the fans who liked ATYCLB or didn't like Pop.

Again, before you feel sorry for him, remember the title of the thread: POP:What pisses me off. Sorry, that's an open invitation there, what did he expect? And this has happened to me with other threads, and I did realize, if you don't want to fight, then don't bring up certain topics. But you cannot bring them up anyway and expect no one to disagree. It's not going to happen. If you want to say this is a discussion board and I have a right to say whatever I want, okay, but remember, so does everyone else, whether you agree or not.

 

[ZeroDude]

Another thread soon to be dragged down by all those involved

 

[yimou]

U2kitten... Good points

 

[U2_Guy]

"...why start a Pop thread, they're guaranteed to bring disagreements..."

U2kitten dreams of the day when - by law - nobody can discuss Pop here anymore.

 

[ZeroDude]

And that probably won't happen

 

[U2_Guy]

And that probably won't happen

I don't doubt anything anymore...

 

[Liesje]

1. The Discotheque Video: Come on boys, Americans are never (EVER) going to understand cheeky. This doesn't mean they should not have made the video (although in my opinion it is terrible), but they should have made a seperate one for the US market and I believe that is why we see them doing different singles and videos here in America today.

2. The first three tracks of Disco, DYFL and MOFO just wasn't going to fly for established U2 fans. The sound is too hard and harsh.

1. Yeah, I think you're right. They've done 2-3 versions of vids before so mayhaps that would've been a good idea for Discotheque? Personally, I LOVE the video. It's just so relaxed and out there in a sarcastic, wtf? kind of way. Most of the 80s vids bore me b/c it's like "look at U2 playing on a boat...look at U2 playing on a roof....look at U2 playing in the castle..." . The Discotheque vid was totally new, with an entirely new attitude for the band.

2. I think you're right here too. The older generations of U2 fans that I know personally say that's how they feel. They don't hate Pop or shun it, they just don't care for it (and Zooropa as well).

Overall, Pop has REALLY grown on me. Sure, I'm a "newer" fan and people can use that as an excuse all they want, but I'm pretty sure Pop was the last U2 album I got when I was first learning all the albums and I didn't really like it at first. I still don't like Wake Up Dead Man. I think once I started watching PopMart I developed a new appreciation for the album. I just dig the whole theme of it being so bright and big and flashy and superficial (purposely) b/c underneath they've got some of the deepest, darkest songs ever.

 

[Zoomerang96]

if people find pop 'harsh' in any way, they don't deserve to listen to music.

i mean really, i'd hate for them to get hurt in the process of listening to something so "challenging"!

shit, you guys are a riot.

 

[U2Kitten]

"...why start a Pop thread, they're guaranteed to bring disagreements..."

U2kitten dreams of the day when - by law - nobody can discuss Pop here anymore.

NO! I hope for a day when Pop can be discussed for itself and what it is and what it means to people without anyone using it as reason to bash ATYCLB or different kinds of fans

 

[jick]

Here are my thoughts as to why POP was not as successful in the US as it should have been.

Great thoughts and it looks like you really put much thought into it. The problem is that U2 also have their own thoughts on this matter and it is that POP was unfinished. Ever wonder why they have been trying to reconstruct and finish POP ever since it was released?

Cheers,

J

 

[beegee]

i got as far as...

Come on boys, Americans are never (EVER) going to understand cheeky...

...and then i realized that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[lazarus]

The problem with Dalton's proposed alternate track order is that you don't have a ballad until Angels at #5. Granted, they did the same think on Zooropa, but we can agree that was a really odd album, and if you want to make POP more accessible you don't wait 5 songs to take it down a notch.

Bono himself was the one who said they shouldn't have opened the album with 3 straight dancy songs. The problem lies mainly in that something lightweight like DYFL doesn't really fit further down in the list. That song isn't that experimental anyway, compared to what bookends it. The problem really is MOFO, and although lyrically it's the most important song on the record, I think you need to put it somewhere in the middle, so people are ready for it.

Think about something like this:

1. Discotheque
2. DYFL
3. SATS
4. Gone
5. LNOE or IGWSHA

You then put MOFO at #7 (the "second side" opener instead of Gone) and have it lead into Miami. Put the two big curveballs next to each other in the middle and get 'em out of the way.

What's funny about all this arguing is that Dalton didn't even mention ATYCLB in his original post. So why we're talking about the "anytime someone praises POP they have to bash ATYCLB" thing is beyond me. It's just poisoning the well. I don't think the "pisses me off" in the thread title was referring to the people who don't like it as much as the missed opportunity of the album and its marketing.


laz

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

The single mix of Please back to back with Hold Me Thrill Me...would have been awesome..

 

[Matthew_Page2000]

I love POP but I too long for the day when we can discuss POP without it devolving into a, "I love POP and it reminds me of what I hate about ATYCLB/HTDAAB" conversation.

Do you suppose that it was at all like this in 1984 when UF came out? If the WWW had existed then would we have had endless threads about U2 selling out and making boring, mellow music? Would we have threads complaining about the lack of rock songs on UF? Threads yearning for the good old days of Gloria, I Will Follow, SBS and New Years Day?
I'll bet that we would have.

 

[Dalton]

If you didn't want an argument so soon after Christmas, why start a Pop thread, they're guaranteed to bring disagreements. Anytime you start a thread, you have to consider that some people will not say what you want to hear. It's a chance we all take. I guess as a long time member here I just grow tired of this and can't understand the resentment people feel over fans who didn't like this album. As a fan who doesn't care for it, I just wish you'd all just let it go and enjoy the album and let others enjoy the albums they choose because it really doesn't matter.

It's like this: when you start threads more or less dissing fans who didn't like it, and leaving the impression there is something wrong with us and we need to come around, that is a bit of an insult, don't you see that? You're acting 'mad' because some fans didn't like Pop, and that there is something wrong with us. All I'm saying is we all have our own taste, and why do you even care? It doesn't matter. There are enough albums for all of us to pick and choose.

I in NO WAY "dissed" any fans who did not like the album. You don't like the album? Fine, why do I care. I am assuming you took my comment about "Two, if anyone other than U2 would have recorded POP it would be considered one of the best albums of the 90's." out of context. I was not railing or "dissing" any fans but music critics in general. I think that the flack that POP took is a direct result of their own success and the marketing track taken by the band.

Also, back to your original post. You argue that the band obviously don't think much of the material because they went back and rerecorded it; I think the fact that they rerecorded some of the songs is a clear sign that the band thinks the songs are VERY GOOD and want to get them right. You don't see them reworking October and much of that album is a mess.

Again, this thread was in no way supposed to turn into a fight about whether or not you liked POP. It looks to me you need to step back and disentangle yourself with this whole mess. You took this to a personal level awfully fast.

 

[Dalton]

Right, absolutely NOTHING wrong with saying how much you love Pop. Say it all day long, you can like what you like. But leave out the parts about how stupid the fans who didn't like it were, and how they need to listen again and come around.

Again, where EXACTLY did I say that fans were "stupid" for not liking POP?


Did you even read my post?

 

[Dalton]

Again, before you feel sorry for him, remember the title of the thread: POP:What pisses me off. Sorry, that's an open invitation there, what did he expect? And this has happened to me with other threads, and I did realize, if you don't want to fight, then don't bring up certain topics. But you cannot bring them up anyway and expect no one to disagree. It's not going to happen. If you want to say this is a discussion board and I have a right to say whatever I want, okay, but remember, so does everyone else, whether you agree or not.

You feel sorry for me? Again, sister, you need to unplug. You are into this thing WAY too deep.

 

[Dalton]

What's funny about all this arguing is that Dalton didn't even mention ATYCLB in his original post. So why we're talking about the "anytime someone praises POP they have to bash ATYCLB" thing is beyond me. It's just poisoning the well. I don't think the "pisses me off" in the thread title was referring to the people who don't like it as much as the missed opportunity of the album and its marketing.


laz

Thank you Laz. I am glad someone read my post before replying.

 

[Dalton]

i got as far as...



...and then i realized that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

LOL

Bonosgirl,

I am an American. I was not trying to bash us, I just think our sense of humor (yes I mean in a stereotypical way) is not the "cheeky" variety. Nothing good or bad about that. It just isn't how we see the world.

 

[Dalton]

I love POP but I too long for the day when we can discuss POP without it devolving into a, "I love POP and it reminds me of what I hate about ATYCLB/HTDAAB" conversation.

Do you suppose that it was at all like this in 1984 when UF came out? If the WWW had existed then would we have had endless threads about U2 selling out and making boring, mellow music? Would we have threads complaining about the lack of rock songs on UF? Threads yearning for the good old days of Gloria, I Will Follow, SBS and New Years Day?
I'll bet that we would have.

I love both (at least parts of) the last two albums. You won't get that argument from me.


I was there when UF was released and yes a lot of fans said they didn't like the direction the band was going. Most of those fans grew to love UF I think. Man, I can still remember the first time I heard Bad live. The perfect song imo.

 

[Liesje]

The single mix of Please back to back with Hold Me Thrill Me...would have been awesome..

I second!

 

[Liesje]

What's funny about all this arguing is that Dalton didn't even mention ATYCLB in his original post. So why we're talking about the "anytime someone praises POP they have to bash ATYCLB" thing is beyond me. It's just poisoning the well. I don't think the "pisses me off" in the thread title was referring to the people who don't like it as much as the missed opportunity of the album and its marketing.

....and the fact that U2 seem to be constantly held to higher standards by the media. Like Dalton said, if almost any other band put out a record like Pop, people would be shitting their pants, but b/c U2 had such a precendent, the record is considered sub-par.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Refusing to get into this argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I personally love Pop (listened to it last night, as a matter of fact)-I'd put it in my top 5 for their albums, and don't quite understand why the critics were so harsh on it. I also personally find the "Discotheque" video funny.

But at the same time, it's their opinion that it's not good, and it's the opinion of some U2 fans that this isn't their favorite album. And that's fine. I don't have to agree with them, they don't have to agree with me-we can all be entitled to our own views on this one, and that's that. I don't understand why people keep having arguments over this one, or ATYCLB, or whatever other album. Discussion is fine, arguing just seems silly.

Angela

 

[anitram]

NO! I hope for a day when Pop can be discussed for itself and what it is and what it means to people without anyone using it as reason to bash ATYCLB or different kinds of fans

Well, if you want for that day to happen, perhaps it would be prudent not to bring these things into the discussion yourself.

Nobody else on this thread seems to be beating that dead horse.

FWIW, I love Pop, although I feel some of the tracks could have used more production work and the band definitely never managed to work out playing them all live as best as they probably could have.