POP: What Pisses Me Off

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The track order is almost secondary because by that point people have bought the album. Unless you're talking about people who sample the beginning of each song on a music store listening station. As for the Discotheque video, they could have survived that--look how bizarre The Fly was compared to what came before it. The album DID debut at #1 with very impressive up-front numbers. Longevity was the problem.

The most impact you have on an album's sales is probably the singles you release. I've argued before that SATS is not powerful enough of a ballad to have been released as the second single (even One was released third, after Mysterious Ways). The goal should have been to get the attention of people who had dismissed it as a techno record, something Discotheque probably failed to do (as rocking as it is). Especially in the U.S. What better way to do this than release a rock song? Last Night on Earth, as mentioned above, is one of the more accessible songs on the record, and still has enough modern touches that it doesn't mislead one about the album's true stylings.

The other problem would have been LNOE's video, which was a little too in-jokey for most people's tastes. Yeah, it's cool that they got William S. Burroughs to appear, but it's a small payoff for a video that's just too concept heavy. It's like a Beastie Boys video with too-subtle humor.

If they had shot a video with the band "on the street" witnessing the decadence or lost souls found there, it could have been a really cool promo (think Bono's solo vid for the Marvin Gaye cover Save the Children).

Staring at the Sun may have been a successful third single, once you had people's attention. It could have come out in mid to late summer. And then instead of releasing Please, which is WAY too complex of a song for a single, I would have put out Gone, maybe with a video featuring live footage.

Then it's the holidays, and maybe IGWSHA has success this time around like it was meant to.


laz
 
U2kitten and U2girl... i think both of them (i'll call them the 2 U's) are just jealous of the ppl who like/love Pop. I've seen the 2 U's go and post in every Pop thread like crazy. They hate ppl who like Pop (i think) just because they never understood this album. They feel left out.

My advice to the 2 U's: don't go into Pop threads. You guys never bring anything new. Only hatred.
 
U2Kitten said:


May God bless you and may you have happiness and prosperity always for being the only person here who understands what I am trying to say!!! :bow: :bow: :hug: :hug: I know you have seen this as much as I have, and THAT'S what I'm talking about, not the things I get accused of by others.

Y'know, the old 'if you don't like it stay out of it' shit should also go for those who always bring it up. If they don't want to hear negative comments, why start the thread? If I live to be 100 I will never understand why anyone, especially the mods, can't see that!:banghead: So let's see, they're allowed to bring it up and anyone who disagrees with them is bad. But if I start a negative thread and get jumped on, what do I hear? 'what did you expect'? well that's what I'm saying here! Hard to believe after all this time only ONE person understands what I mean. :grumpy:


So to all those both friend and foe dissing and/or lecturing me, what U2girl said!! :yes:


Its hard for me to believe that you are trying to play the victim now. “So let's see, they're allowed to bring it up and anyone who disagrees with them is bad. But if I start a negative thread and get jumped on, what do I hear?” Have you noticed that you are the only one being negative at all in this thread (well and U2_Guy, but that is his MO).

This is not a negative thread. You have proven over and over again that you either 1. have not read the original post or 2. do not have the capability to understand it.

You first complained that this was a thread that bashed ATYCLB and to praise POP. It was pointed out to you that you misunderstood, but you still choose to rant about nothing.

REMEMBER: just because you have had countless discussions about this topic, not all of us have. I believe this is my first discussion about POP. I had a few ideas about why it was not well received and I posted them. If you don’t agree that is fine, but that doesn’t negate my ideas nor my right to post them. If you think my ideas are crap – fine. Then point out what is wrong with my logic. Don’t just throw a temper tantrum because I brought up a subject that you don’t fancy. It makes you look like a child.

Also this idea of limiting what topics can be posted is absurd. I have been a fan for a very long time and have talked about War until I was blue in the face. Does that mean that no one should be able to discuss War because I am tired of talking about it? No, there are a lot of fans on here who are just discovering the album and want to share their thoughts.
 
Look, I've already said what I think and feel and that is not changing. Just go on and answer Brazilian Fly and Laz's interesting posts and leave me be. I won't post in here again.
 
*Still staying out of the argument*

TheBrazilianFly said:
1. Of course not man. Pop's music, lyrics, melodies and messages are a lot more dense in my opinion. Every song on that record is a little world by it self. That must be the ultimate achievement for a songwriter and I thing U2 gets there with every song on this album. It's funny how this album is called POP since all the songs are so not pop and so not commercial for the exception of a few moments. I love it. Maybe this is the problem, every song has a lot to take in, it's not easy to understand it all immediately. And maybe that's bad for the record’s expected fast popularity but it's good in a long term for the listeners.

2. I really don't know but I can't believe people would let that be the judge if the album is good or not. I think if people didn't like the album it's because they just didn't liked the new sounds and the different approach. I like the video so much, Discothèque has such a relaxed and "let's just have some fun" feel that I think a video like that would be expected. It's the most commercial song on the record I think along with Last Night On Earth in terms of message. It doesn't take much to get into it but I guess you either get into it or you don't. The video is hilarious, I wonder if people were expecting something really serious like in the 80's even after all they did with AB and Zooropa.

3. I don't know why it would. It's the most balanced tracking list. MAYBE the use of the songs with a very direct dance feel and beats and stuff could have scared some people away but I think that's the album they wanted to make and why should they try to find a track list that hides that important part of the album. They weren't ashamed of the album were they? I don't think so. I can't see those songs anywhere else in the list.


Just one thing that I don't understand is how come they did the whole tour arrangement before they even finished the album? I mean who does that? U2 was already big then, why did the record company rush them when they were in the studio? Shouldn’t they by then already have the freedom that they have today? It's just weird. :huh:

That is worth pondering, isn't it? Good questions...I never thought about that before, that is weird.

Anywho, the rest of your post is nice, too :up:. You're right about the songs having a lot to take in-I remember when I first heard this album, some of the songs grabbed me right away, and others, I certainly didn't hate them, but it took a couple of listens for me to get used to them, just 'cause the music was a little different and everything. But once I got used to them...:up:.

Angela
 
Dalton said:


Also this idea of limiting what topics can be posted is absurd. I have been a fan for a very long time and have talked about War until I was blue in the face. Does that mean that no one should be able to discuss War because I am tired of talking about it? No, there are a lot of fans on here who are just discovering the album and want to share their thoughts.

Discussing is ok.

I think you will agree that putting "I hate ATYCLB/HTDAAB" in POP threads and the things I mentioned - putting down fans of those two albums - aren't discussion. Or saying "POP is better" as if it was a fact, when all it really is, is opinion.

That is what should be limited. And yes, since you mentioned it, U2_Guy is the perfect example of the kind of behaviour that irks many people here.
 
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Wow, this has become a ridiculous thread. In reaction to the ORIGINAL post before it was made into something it is not (I am not going to name names here :wink: ), I think that Pop is a very good album, but not up to typical U2 standards. Most of the songs are great (except Miami and Playboy Mansion do not do much for me) but it is the tracklisting that bothers me. The three heavy dance songs are in a row, the three more typical rock songs are in a row and most of the more downbeat songs are in a row. This makes the album much more exhausting than it should be. However, mixing the songs up and changing the tracklisting only makes things worse as it will be jarring going from a dance song to a rock song and back again. Basically I feel like U2 wanted to make an all-out dance/techno/electronic album and chickened out and threw in some typical U2 anthems. In the end, most of the songs are great but the album is deeply flawed. As a result, I don't think it is anywhere near OK Computer which flows beautifully from start to finish.

BTW, I love the Discotheque video.
 
U2girl said:


Discussing is ok.

I think you will agree that putting "I hate ATYCLB/HTDAAB" in POP threads and the things I mentioned - putting down fans of those two albums - aren't discussion. Or saying "POP is better" as if it was a fact, when all it really is, is opinion.

That is what should be limited. And yes, since you mentioned it, U2_Guy is the perfect example of the kind of behaviour that irks many people here.

But that was not happening in this thread until it was brought about by your cohort and yourself. I agree with you, I hate those posts as well, so complain about it when it is actually occuring. Poor Dalton was just throwing out some ideas and opinions.
 
What cohort? :huh: I did not attack anyone in my post, which was a day later after the start and on page 4. Also I was not talking about anyone in particular, and most definitely not Dalton.

I was only trying to explain what U2Kitten was saying, and again, like I said - NOT this thread but it happens constantly. Since this IS a thread about POP, it's as good a place as any to have a debate about it - I have seen more than enough arguing threads between HTDAAB/ATYCLB haters and supporters to post it there (see post by zoomerang96 on page 1 for a further example of what I mean by monitoring excessive negativity).

A discussion about this kind of attitude was attempted in the suggestion forum but basically, nothing happened. Or should I say, the only "solution" was, between the lines, for us to suck it up and be quiet.
I did complain when posts occured, threads get closed - until next time.
 
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U2girl said:


I think you will agree that putting "I hate ATYCLB/HTDAAB" in POP threads and the things I mentioned - putting down fans of those two albums - aren't discussion. Or saying "POP is better" as if it was a fact, when all it really is, is opinion.


NOBODY ON THIS THREAD EVER WROTE ANYTHING LIKE THAT!!!!

For the love of God! I had to resort to using capitals because I don't know if some people here can't properly read posts or if they have some unabashed need to continuously post straw man arguments simply to be different.

As to the actual topic:

The other problem would have been LNOE's video, which was a little too in-jokey for most people's tastes.

I think that by the time LNOE came out (as both a single and a video) most people who were going to give up on Pop had done so (critics included). Whether that video was not everyone's cup of tea is, in the long run, irrelevant, because it was neither the straw that broke the camel's back, nor was it ever going to be the saviour of the album.

As for OK, Computer, I think it's a lot more sonically accessible than Pop. For example, a song like Karma Police has an absolutely beautiful melody that transcends its genre. Then you have Lucky and No surprises and Let Down - all incredibly accessible songs that are structurally ear candy to the listener. Pop doesn't really have that, the songs are more raw and more abrasive and not constructed to be epic. So while I love both Pop and OK, Computer - when I put the latter into my CD player, it's like wrapping yourself in a warm blanket, while with the former, it's more manic and in-your-face.
 
When I read Larry's comments and came here and saw a Pop thread, I thought that would be the discussion. It's apparently still relevant in his and even U2's mind. He and I've heard Bono even say they never had a chance to complete it...properly. They love the songs but would love the chance to finish the album to their satisfaction.
With that said - I can't imagine how it would sound. I mean from the standpoint of where they were musically Then and what they are doing now. .. I don't know. How would it turn out??
I of course would love the chance to find out. Maybe they will after the tour and the subsequent album they already have and the box set of live copilations they should release yada,yada. One can dream :wink:
 
anitram said:


NOBODY ON THIS THREAD EVER WROTE ANYTHING LIKE THAT!!!!

For the love of God! I had to resort to using capitals because I don't know if some people here can't properly read posts or if they have some unabashed need to continuously post straw man arguments simply to be different.


And for the 3rd time, my posts are NOT about this specific thread, but about certain POP related comments which U2Kitten is referring to.
 
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U2girl said:


And for the 3rd time, my posts are NOT about this specific thread, but about certain POP related comments which U2Kitten is referring.

Then comment in the appropriate thread, don't sabotage Dalton's.

I will support you when a thread starts saying that those who don't like Pop are morons and that the new albums suck.
 
sue4u2 said:
With that said - I can't imagine how it would sound. I mean from the standpoint of where they were musically Then and what they are doing now. .. I don't know. How would it turn out??
I of course would love the chance to find out. Maybe they will after the tour and the subsequent album they already have and the box set of live copilations they should release yada,yada. One can dream :wink:

That would be quite interesting to see, indeed. I'd be curious about that, too (kinda like how I'm hoping they do something with the original lyrics to the October album, 'cause I'm really curious to see what their original intents were going to be for that one).

Also, people are mentioning comparisons to OK Computer...heh, I can't compare Pop to that one, 'cause I don't own OK Computer :p.

Angela
 
bsp77 said:


Then comment in the appropriate thread, don't sabotage Dalton's.

I will support you when a thread starts saying that those who don't like Pop are morons and that the new albums suck.

I already explained my comments.

There have been many posts like you describe.
 
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lazarus said:

The most impact you have on an album's sales is probably the singles you release. I've argued before that SATS is not powerful enough of a ballad to have been released as the second single (even One was released third, after Mysterious Ways). The goal should have been to get the attention of people who had dismissed it as a techno record, something Discotheque probably failed to do (as rocking as it is). Especially in the U.S. What better way to do this than release a rock song? Last Night on Earth, as mentioned above, is one of the more accessible songs on the record, and still has enough modern touches that it doesn't mislead one about the album's true stylings.

laz



Yeah, I agree Laz. Last Night on Earth would have made a great 2nd single replacing SATS. I don't know that SATS ever had the stuff to be a great single, I do like please as a single though.

But the question of it being too complex furthers my comparisson with OKC. Why is that album a critical success (longevity) and POP has taken a turn for the worse? Both are very complex musically rich albums. Why the love for one and not the other.
 
anitram said:



As for OK, Computer, I think it's a lot more sonically accessible than Pop. For example, a song like Karma Police has an absolutely beautiful melody that transcends its genre. Then you have Lucky and No surprises and Let Down - all incredibly accessible songs that are structurally ear candy to the listener. Pop doesn't really have that, the songs are more raw and more abrasive and not constructed to be epic. So while I love both Pop and OK, Computer - when I put the latter into my CD player, it's like wrapping yourself in a warm blanket, while with the former, it's more manic and in-your-face.



Yeah, I would agree with that OKC is a very "delicate" album. Even with Jonny's crunch it often sounds close to breaking. You never get that in POP.
 
Dalton said:




Yeah, I agree Laz. Last Night on Earth would have made a great 2nd single replacing SATS. I don't know that SATS ever had the stuff to be a great single, I do like please as a single though.

But the question of it being too complex furthers my comparisson with OKC. Why is that album a critical success (longevity) and POP has taken a turn for the worse? Both are very complex musically rich albums. Why the love for one and not the other.

As I metioned somewhere back in the midst of all the bickering, I think Pop is a weak album because it sounds like two completely different sounds fighting for control: the dance rock/techno vs classic U2 anthems. They do not sit together very well for me and it just feels like they got scared of making a true techno album and threw in stuff like Staring at the Sun, Last Night on Earth, Gone and Please. Overall, there are a lot of great songs on the album but the songs should have never been on the same album. Also, the techno songs don't sound that revolutionary, these kind of songs have been done elsewhere. Achtung Baby and Zooropa, on the other hand, sounded completely new.

OK Computer has the great songs as well but flows beautifully and also sounded completely new. In my opinion, OK Computer is the second greatest modern rock album, following Achtung Baby.

Pop - great songs, but realtively weak album, at least by U2 standards

OKC - great songs and a masterpiece of an album
 
Yeah, as an album OK Computer would appear to have the edge. But I'd still argue that song for song POP is a more accomplished effort (even if nothing on it rises to the level of Karma Police, Lucky, or even Let Down). There's not a huge variety of styles on OK Computer, and there's a few forgettable tracks. The Bends is a better collection of songs. Say what you want about POP, but EVERY song is a completely different entity lyrically and musically. Perhaps it is this lack of unity that keeps it from being a masterpiece like Achtung Baby, or (in my opinion, to a lesser extent) OK Computer. But it's an amazing feat of composition and performance.

It pisses me off more that AB doesn't get as much credit as OK. I think AB was WAY more ahead of its time. That's something we should all be whining about. And Zooropa is OK Computer (in terms of thematics) with more adventure, 4 years earlier. Ultimately, OK just had a tone that fit the way most critics and music snobs felt at the end of the millenium. Instead of an searching, crisis of faith party like POP, they preferred a real downer that spoke of virtually no hope.


laz
 
lazarus said:
Yeah, as an album OK Computer would appear to have the edge. But I'd still argue that song for song POP is a more accomplished effort (even if nothing on it rises to the level of Karma Police, Lucky, or even Let Down). There's not a huge variety of styles on OK Computer, and there's a few forgettable tracks. The Bends is a better collection of songs. Say what you want about POP, but EVERY song is a completely different entity lyrically and musically. Perhaps it is this lack of unity that keeps it from being a masterpiece like Achtung Baby, or (in my opinion, to a lesser extent) OK Computer. But it's an amazing feat of composition and performance.

It pisses me off more that AB doesn't get as much credit as OK. I think AB was WAY more ahead of its time. That's something we should all be whining about. And Zooropa is OK Computer (in terms of thematics) with more adventure, 4 years earlier. Ultimately, OK just had a tone that fit the way most critics and music snobs felt at the end of the millenium. Instead of an searching, crisis of faith party like POP, they preferred a real downer that spoke of virtually no hope.


laz



I agree with all of this, but you have to give OK Computer some credit. Thom sounds pretty....
 
Dalton said:



REMEMBER: just because you have had countless discussions about this topic, not all of us have. I believe this is my first discussion about POP. I had a few ideas about why it was not well received and I posted them.

Absolutely! I think some of the people that have been here a long time forget that not ALL of us have. I hate when a newer poster posts a topic and all the "oldies" roll their eyes and get irritated because they've heard it a hundred times.

Regarding PoP:

I like this album, but in bits and pieces. It doesn't flow well for me, perhaps it IS the track listing or perhaps it is the 2 types of U2 sounds like someone else mentioned.

I liked the Discotheque video, so that didn't ruin it for me, but all of my friends absolutely hated it :|
 
I was just over on the greenplastic radiohead message board (not a member), and they had a thread for "What bands do you hate?" I reluctantly started reading, expecting to see a lot of U2 hate, but was pleasantly surprised. They mostly took aim at crap like Creed, Linkin Park, Nickelback, etc. However, on the last page, someone had to chime in with:

U2 (after POP)

Thought SOME of you would get a kick out of that.


laz
 
Pop is very special to me, theres not one song that i can say, i dont like,, as it whole is a journey to listen to from start to finish...:drool:
 
Well, as I just became a U2 fan in the fast four months, and I'm young, 14, I was open to Pop when I first heard the songs. I love songs like Mofo, Discotheque. Gone, Staring At the Sun are awesome too. There isn't anything I dislike about Pop.

I <3 the discotheque video. It makes me laugh. a lot.
 
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