October did not fail because of the music, it failed because....

[Axver]

Am I the only person who thinks the October cover is awesome? Come on, THE 'FRO!

 

[Axver]

Is that first part true or are you being sarcastic?

No sarcasm.

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

The Zooropa cover is excellent...the inclusion of song titles hidden away was a nice touch.

 

[Axver]

Maybe Bono realised he was a bit too pompous and preachy in the 80s.

I find it amusing when people call Bono pompous and preachy, because he was right.

Originally posted by miss becky
I was gonna stay out of this, until I read this. Axver, just because you don't like Achtung Baby doesn't mean that those of us who do like it "blindly praise" it. Give us some credit, please. We know what we like, and we have reasons for it, just as you have reasons for liking Lovetown era best.

Please do not make such sweeping generalizations about people here.

We now return to our regularly scheduled argument.

I am well aware of that, but I am sure you also see people who blindly praise Achtung. People here blindly praise just about anything U2 does, and AB receives more than its fair share of blind praise. There are plenty of people who think it hasn't got a single flaw. Maybe their copies are missing EBTTRT and TTTYAATW ...

 

[miss becky]

I am well aware of that, but I am sure you also see people who blindly praise Achtung. People here blindly praise just about anything U2 does, and AB receives more than its fair share of blind praise. There are plenty of people who think it hasn't got a single flaw. Maybe their copies are missing EBTTRT and TTTYAATW ...

Call me a blind worshipper then.

 

[U2Kitten]

Am I the only person who thinks the October cover is awesome? Come on, THE 'FRO!

I like it too! I was not knocking the guys' looks, (I like them!) only the overall layout and design.

 

[Axver]

Call me a blind worshipper then.

You don't think there's even one weak line on the album?

 

[namkcuR]

Am I the only person who thinks the October cover is awesome? Come on, THE 'FRO!

I loved the FRO!

Actually it's really Bono that ruins that cover for me...honestly I never liked his mullet or even the pre-mullet thing he had going during Boy and October.

But the FRO rocks!

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

I think Bono ranting onstage about prostitutes and stuff makes him sound like some old grandpa...thats one thing I liked about the AB era, they loosened up and had some fun with what they were doing, rather than getting all uptight and judgemental. I think they realised themselves it was time to change.

 

[miss becky]

You don't think there's even one weak line on the album?

Line, yes. Song, no.

And this is way off-topic. I'm happy to discuss this in private e-mail, if you prefer.

 

[Zoots]

Even Better Than The Real Thing may have mediocre lyrics but musically it is faaaaaaaaaar superior to something like City of Blinding Lights. Don't get me wrong, I like COBL. But I was listening to Even Better in my car on the way back from work. Just the rush of music right after the intro when Larry is banging the shit out of the drums and the song kicks off like a canon with Bono's voice in the background is worth the price of the fucking CD. I heard it after a long time and almost had an orgasm right in my car.

 

[U2Kitten]

Bono's mullet and pre-mullet shag ROCK!

 

[financeguy]

Let me rephrase then

Music, WITHIN any given genre, is completely subjective.

AKA, yes, it is a fact that classical music is better and more complex than pop music. That is not subjective. But talking about which classical composers you prefer IS subjective. Similarly, talking about which pop/rock artists your prefer is completely subjective, and talking about which records within a given artist's catalog is also completely subjective.

Now this I can agree with.

 

[financeguy]

While I agree with you that the talent and impact that Bach had on music in general is leaps and bounds ahead that of Britney Spears, it's nothing more than an opinion. To people who actually do like Britney Spears, suggesting something like that would probably seem just as ludicrous to them as the opposite would be to us. And they're welcome to have that opinion, however flawed it may seem, because that's all it is, an opinion. While we may disagree with it, it doesn't make us any more right than they are and it certainly shouldn't give us the right to belittle them.

Eh, sorry but no. It is not belittling someone to tell them that, for example Bach is superior than Britney. It is a simple statement of fact - or perhaps an attempt at musical re-education?

Frankly, all musc is not equivalent. Some is better than others. It seems to me to be political correctness gone mad to assert that everyone's opinions on music are equally valid or equally deserving of attention.

 

[namkcuR]

Eh, sorry but no.

Who made you the all-knowing authority on the matter?

 

[-macphisto-]

Am I the only person who thinks the October cover is awesome? Come on, THE 'FRO!

Axver- Im with you, The cover is fricken SWEET, Its not that its artistic or deep or anything, but it shows U2 as U2, I dont know how to explain, But I like it, because its simple, and you can see in there eyes there going to change the world.

 

[-macphisto-]

I think Bono ranting onstage about prostitutes and stuff makes him sound like some old grandpa...thats one thing I liked about the AB era, they loosened up and had some fun with what they were doing, rather than getting all uptight and judgemental. I think they realised themselves it was time to change.

I love the 80's U2 for that reason, they werent in a band for the woman, or sex, or drugs, they were in a band to make a diffrence in the world, through there lyrics, and there ranting and ravings, they had a purpose to CHANGE THE WORLD. Also what was so great about the U2 80's was there clothes, they didnt care what the dressed in, or what they looked like, I find it so sweet how they dressed back then, it was awesome! I think it was good for them to change the music, and maybe loosen up a bit in the 90's,and have some fun, but having fun is not sex and drugs and like Bono said"something had got to change". I love both era's of music, there both great, but if I had to pick U2 as people I would pick the 80's over the 90's, they were much more sincere and music was a reason to change people for the good!

 

[Miggy D]

Anyone who thinks the bands' Zoo personalities were anything else but facades...

doesn't know jack shit about U2.

Sorry.

They adopted these personas because they knew people were tired of their 'holier than thou' 80s stances. But come on - they still showed Sarejvo video links in the middle of their concerts, they still went and protested nuclear waste in Ireland, they still donated the proceeds from the One single to AIDS research. In 'U2 At The End of the World' Larry talks about how the Sarejvo linkups were going to destroy over 2 years of image re-creation. But U2 have ALWAYS been 80s U2. 80s U2 is who they actually are. 90s U2 (at least visually, such as clothes, design, staging) is merely what they pretended to be.

It. Was. All. A. Smoke. Screen.

I know the casual fans bought their new 'image.'

But people on this forum?


-Miggy D

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

Yeah it was a facade to an extent, but I still feel they weren't as "sincere" as they once were, and on the whole they weren't shoving their causes in people's faces as much I would have said.


And thanks for the condescending insults you pretentious twerp.

 

[david]

The only thing "At The End of the World" showed me was that during the Zoo TV era Bono was one hell of late night partier.

 

[financeguy]

I think the idea that U2 were such clean-living, respectable people in the 80's and all of a sudden got really decadent and irresponsible in the 90's is rather simplistic and naive. Don't forget Adam received a conviction for marijuana in the 80's, plus Bono is on record as saying he was drinking far too much at certain stages during the Joshua Tree tour.

I agree with Miggy that the ZooTv personas were to a large extent just that - artistic personas, and they still believed in the 90's in the same causes they did in the 80's, only more so if anything. It's important to separate the person from the art.

 

[Miggy D]

Yeah it was a facade to an extent, but I still feel they weren't as "sincere" as they once were, and on the whole they weren't shoving their causes in people's faces as much I would have said.


And thanks for the condescending insults you pretentious twerp.

I apologize. That came out meaner than I meant it.

They're just so much damn arguing, all the time, on this forum, that it gets me in a bad mood. People can be so mean to each other on here. And that in turn made me want to be mean, cause I got grumpy and pissed. I apologize.

But anyway - I think it was a complete facade. I mean, in a way. U2 had a sense of humor in the 80s, but they just marketed themselves as being super serious. They realized that people had grown tired of this (the backlash to their Rattle and Hum movie being a good example), and decided to create a facade of humor and irony. But it's funny - Achtung Baby is probably a more serious album than Joshua Tree.

It's like Bono said - he told people they were making Achtung Baby a dense record, and they thought he said dance record.

-Miggy 'I am a man' D

 

[-macphisto-]

Anyone who thinks the bands' Zoo personalities were anything else but facades...

doesn't know jack shit about U2.

Sorry.

They adopted these personas because they knew people were tired of their 'holier than thou' 80s stances. But come on - they still showed Sarejvo video links in the middle of their concerts, they still went and protested nuclear waste in Ireland, they still donated the proceeds from the One single to AIDS research. In 'U2 At The End of the World' Larry talks about how the Sarejvo linkups were going to destroy over 2 years of image re-creation. But U2 have ALWAYS been 80s U2. 80s U2 is who they actually are. 90s U2 (at least visually, such as clothes, design, staging) is merely what they pretended to be.

It. Was. All. A. Smoke. Screen.

I know the casual fans bought their new 'image.'

But people on this forum?


-Miggy D

Sorry, but I new Zoo Tv was a huge game for U2, and of course they are still U2 of the 80's just with diffrent perspective and attitude. So it doesnt change the fact that U2 had changed as a band, the message they were trying to get out in the 80's verse the 90's U2, through there music, rock and roll lifestyle, etc... There's a huge diffrence in the 80's vs the 90's U2.
Also, I said that about the clothes, because Bono has said that there younger days was a dressing massacre, or something like that. And it was cool to see that U2 were not even concious of the clothes they wore, they didnt care what they wore, and at some point they became concious of what they were wearing.

 

[Saracene]

Sorry but no. Music is not completely subjective. There is an element of subjectivity, yes.

For example Bach is better than Britney Spears and anyone who would attempt to argue otherwise is just plain wrong.

Yes, but many people would argue that Bach is better than anything produced in the popular music in the last century, period. And if you try and judge music produced by any rock/pop band using the parametres you use for comparing pieces of classical music, then all of rock/pop music can be dismissed as inferior. Comparisons only make sense IMO when you make them between artists/groups belonging roughly to the same genre. And comparisons are even more difficult to make within the rock genre because very often things like musical complexity and vocal or technical excellence are not what rock music is about.

 

[lazarus]

Sorry, back late to the discussion here, but I just want to counter Axver's statement that Achtung was insincere.

You can criticize the tour all you want for being pastiche and over the top. That's fine. But please don't confuse the album with the tour. The only song on the album that has connection to the tour is Zoo Station, and it's really the narrator trying to get his bearing in the modern world/unified Berlin/whatever. The rest of the album deals with broken down relationships and the difficulty people have relating to one another. That's pretty fucking sincere in my book.

And Acrobat (which you've acknowledged as the most indispensable track) is a meditation on Bono's role as an artist, a theme that would continue right into the beginning of Zooropa and on through songs like MOFO & Gone.

While Bono's marriage didn't hit the rocks like The Edge's, I see the lyrics on Achtung coming from a more deep and personal place than ANYTHING on the previous albums. As they put it back then, it was perhaps their darkest, most serious record. So don't infer insincerity from the album cover or from the tour, because it's anything but.


laz

 

[namkcuR]

Sorry, back late to the discussion here, but I just want to counter Axver's statement that Achtung was insincere.

You can criticize the tour all you want for being pastiche and over the top. That's fine. But please don't confuse the album with the tour. The only song on the album that has connection to the tour is Zoo Station, and it's really the narrator trying to get his bearing in the modern world/unified Berlin/whatever. The rest of the album deals with broken down relationships and the difficulty people have relating to one another. That's pretty fucking sincere in my book.

And Acrobat (which you've acknowledged as the most indispensable track) is a meditation on Bono's role as an artist, a theme that would continue right into the beginning of Zooropa and on through songs like MOFO & Gone.

While Bono's marriage didn't hit the rocks like The Edge's, I see the lyrics on Achtung coming from a more deep and personal place than ANYTHING on the previous albums. As they put it back then, it was perhaps their darkest, most serious record. So don't infer insincerity from the album cover or from the tour, because it's anything but.


laz

This I agree with.

 

[thrillme]

namkcuR wrote:
I almost see where you're coming from, but I can't justify any of those 'anyone who _______ is a(an) ___________' statements. I know people who think the Beatles suck. Do I disagree with them with every fiber of my being? Yes. Are they idiots? No...well, not all of them. One guy is a very intelligent guy, albiet a jackass...but the point is, you can't just call someone an idiot because they don't share your opinion on music, or anything else for that matter, be it movies, sports, politics, etc etc.

LOL, I think I know who you're referring to. (I'm A.K.A. hmtmkmkm at Poplemon).

Am I the only person who thinks the October cover is awesome? Come on, THE 'FRO!

Hehe I was famous, or maybe infamous, on the first version of U2's Zootopia, for my appreciation for Adam's fro. Adam looked his most attractive on that cover, his short buzz cuts don't quite match that afro for me.

I even have the October album as my picture for MSN messenger.

Larry had that lengthy dark blond hair, Edge had much more hair.

 

[Axver]

Frodam, as I've taken to calling October-era Adam, simply had the coolest 'do of any U2 member, with the possible exception of Bono's spectacular mullet (I say he's the only person who ever suited a mullet). I have the same golden curls as Adam, so when they come to Australia, I'm going to let my hair 'fro out, get a horrifically bright green sweater like the one Adam wears on the Stories For Boys performance on the 1980-01-15 Late Late Show, make a 'bass' out of cardboard, and go to a show as Frodam.

</off-topic>

 

[thrillme]

Frodam, as I've taken to calling October-era Adam, simply had the coolest 'do of any U2 member, with the possible exception of Bono's spectacular mullet (I say he's the only person who ever suited a mullet). I have the same golden curls as Adam, so when they come to Australia, I'm going to let my hair 'fro out, get a horrifically bright green sweater like the one Adam wears on the Stories For Boys performance on the 1980-01-15 Late Late Show, make a 'bass' out of cardboard, and go to a show as Frodam.

</off-topic>

Hehe, well, if Adam sees you, he might appreciate the sentiment.

 

[Aardvark747]

Larry's finest input on a U2 track for me, is on Rejoice.