October did not fail because of the music, it failed because....

[financeguy]

By the way ...

In my opinion, October > Achtung Baby. So, lazarus, am I a fucking idiot now because I don't share your AB worship?

Cripes Axver I used to think you were a U2 expert. I assume you are joking.

Achtung Baby is the most influential U2 album U2 every put out. I personally prefer JT and possibly UF but that doesn't change the fact that AB has been enormously influential and it's still influencing music today. Sorry but I really don't understand how anyone could prefer October to Achtung Baby.

 

[-macphisto-]

In short, yes.

Without a doubt.

I'm not criticizing people who like, or even love October. But if you think it's their best album, or one of their best, your taste in music is suspect.

And if you think it is a more impressive album than Achtung Baby, you are a fool, or have some kind of pesonal baggage with AB that you can't reconcile.


laz

Nobody has said it is "better" then Achtung Baby, I dont know where you got that? But, they are 2 completly different albums, some albums speak to other people more than others, if someone likes October more than Achtung then who cares, so be it, dont try to downgrade somebody else's musical taste. Achtung Baby is a fricken sweet album, I cant say october is Better, but I love OCTOBER!

 

[-macphisto-]

Sorry but I really don't understand how anyone could prefer October to Achtung Baby.

I can, its really not that difficult to understand, they are 2 completly diffrent albums, they come from diffrent periods of time, October is very religious themed, and Achtung is, well I dont know what to say for Achtung. The point is, each album speaks to others diffrently, people like music for diffrent reasons, its simple. Sometimes the best music can be a simple chord, with one word that can change the world-REJOICE

 

[financeguy]

Nobody has said it is "better" then Achtung Baby, I dont know where you got that?

Axver actually did say it above. I sincerely hope he was exaggerating.

 

[namkcuR]

In short, yes.

Without a doubt.

I'm not criticizing people who like, or even love October. But if you think it's their best album, or one of their best, your taste in music is suspect.

And if you think it is a more impressive album than Achtung Baby, you are a fool, or have some kind of pesonal baggage with AB that you can't reconcile.


laz

I can hold back no more.

Don't tell people how good, bad, right, or wrong their musical tastes are. It's completely subjective. Have your own opinion, but do NOT tell people they are wrong if they disagree with you, and most CERTAINLY do not go around telling people they are a fool because they prefer one work of art to another. It makes you sound arrogant and preachy.

 

[financeguy]

Sorry but no. Music is not completely subjective. There is an element of subjectivity, yes.

For example Bach is better than Britney Spears and anyone who would attempt to argue otherwise is just plain wrong.

 

[GibsonGirl]

if someone likes October more than Achtung then who cares, so be it, dont try to downgrade somebody else's musical taste.

Exactly. I don't know how people can come off stating that their opinion and their opinion only is the be all and end all when it comes to music. I know that there are probably plenty of people at Interference who can't stand classical music, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Does the fact that I enjoy it automatically make my musical taste shit? Not at all. It's just what I happen to enjoy. Again, I can't stress enough the fact that musical preference is subjective! It's fine to discuss and debate music, but to go as far as to call someone a fool or state that their musical taste is "fucked up", just because they like a particular album, is uncalled for.

 

[namkcuR]

Sorry but no. Music is not completely subjective. There is an element of subjectivity, yes.

For example Bach is better than Britney Spears and anyone who would attempt to argue otherwise is just plain wrong.

Let me rephrase then

Music, WITHIN any given genre, is completely subjective.

AKA, yes, it is a fact that classical music is better and more complex than pop music. That is not subjective. But talking about which classical composers you prefer IS subjective. Similarly, talking about which pop/rock artists your prefer is completely subjective, and talking about which records within a given artist's catalog is also completely subjective.

 

[GibsonGirl]

For example Bach is better than Britney Spears and anyone who would attempt to argue otherwise is just plain wrong.

While I agree with you that the talent and impact that Bach had on music in general is leaps and bounds ahead that of Britney Spears, it's nothing more than an opinion. To people who actually do like Britney Spears, suggesting something like that would probably seem just as ludicrous to them as the opposite would be to us. And they're welcome to have that opinion, however flawed it may seem, because that's all it is, an opinion. While we may disagree with it, it doesn't make us any more right than they are and it certainly shouldn't give us the right to belittle them.

 

[allbecauseofu2]

the beatles are the highest selling rock band of all time. thats not subjective. those kinds of facts. i always felt u2 was the highest selling altertive band. because all the bands above them have never been called altertive. u2 has been called alterative many times. i persoanly feel they are. i feel that while they have alot of assesble elements to thier music, thier still have that alterative core is more then strong enough to be alterative. the same way led zeppelin is considered the highest selling metal band of all time, aerosmtih is the highest selling hard rock band, garth brooks is the highest seling country artist fo all time, etc. because they artists has enoguh of other elements to thier music to appeal to non fans of thier gerne yet at thier core thier still in said gerne. i guess that would be subjective. but something like the beatles are the highest selling band ever, thats not subjective.

 

[lazarus]

Yeah yeah yeah, everyone's entitled to what they like etc. I could come on here and tell you that even though I'm a huge U2 fan, I think that Bon Jovi is superior (something Jick has come pretty close to saying at times). Would I have the right to that opinion? Yes. Would you be fair in calling me an idiot? Yeah.

If that's arrogant, so be it. I can live with that. I can live with looking down on people's shitty musical tastes. It doesn't mean I'm judging the entirety of their personality or saying they should be rounded up in prison camps.

Axver DID say October was greater than Achtung Baby. Personally I think he has some kind of baggage regarding the album that we're not privy to; perhaps it's something subconscious that he doesn't even recognize. But if you think that the songs, lyrics, playing, singing, or anything else overall about October is better than AB, you're a poor excuse for a U2 fan in my opinion. Because you are FAILING TO ACKNOWLEDGE what many critics, die hard U2 fans, casual U2 fans, and the BAND THEMSELVES consider to be their finest work.

There is subjectivity, and there's also consensus. Same reason that anyone who says "The Beatles suck" is an idiot.


laz

 

[Nube Gris]

Anyone who says Bon Jovi is superior to U2 is an idiot

 

[allbecauseofu2]

if someone says something like the beatles suck, in that case you better tell us why and another band who is what the beatles are to everyone else. like you can't just say that and and then not back it up. in fact if you say any band sux or are not important to music and don;t back it up, your a idiot for not backing up. not just cause you took a unpopular stance.

 

[namkcuR]

Yeah yeah yeah, everyone's entitled to what they like etc. I could come on here and tell you that even though I'm a huge U2 fan, I think that Bon Jovi is superior (something Jick has come pretty close to saying at times). Would I have the right to that opinion? Yes. Would you be fair in calling me an idiot? Yeah.

If that's arrogant, so be it. I can live with that. I can live with looking down on people's shitty musical tastes. It doesn't mean I'm judging the entirety of their personality or saying they should be rounded up in prison camps.

Axver DID say October was greater than Achtung Baby. Personally I think he has some kind of baggage regarding the album that we're not privy to; perhaps it's something subconscious that he doesn't even recognize. But if you think that the songs, lyrics, playing, singing, or anything else overall about October is better than AB, you're a poor excuse for a U2 fan in my opinion. Because you are FAILING TO ACKNOWLEDGE what many critics, die hard U2 fans, casual U2 fans, and the BAND THEMSELVES consider to be their finest work.

There is subjectivity, and there's also consensus. Same reason that anyone who says "The Beatles suck" is an idiot.


laz

I almost see where you're coming from, but I can't justify any of those 'anyone who _______ is a(an) ___________' statements. I know people who think the Beatles suck. Do I disagree with them with every fiber of my being? Yes. Are they idiots? No...well, not all of them. One guy is a very intelligent guy, albiet a jackass...but the point is, you can't just call someone an idiot because they don't share your opinion on music, or anything else for that matter, be it movies, sports, politics, etc etc.

Oh, and the only baggage Axver has with AB is that the Lovetown era is his favorite era, and AB was what 'killed' that era. I think. Axver can correct me if I'm remembering wrong.

 

[Axver]

Axver DID say October was greater than Achtung Baby. Personally I think he has some kind of baggage regarding the album that we're not privy to; perhaps it's something subconscious that he doesn't even recognize.

That's bullshit. Achtung is one of the first U2 albums I had, I had it before October, and I have always loved the album. I just don't love it as much as October or other U2 albums. No-one here has to worship Achtung or think it's the most incredible jewel in U2's crown. In fact, I'm tired of the Achtung worship here. If anything, the continual blind praising of Achtung aids in turning me against the album - even though I try to avoid letting the opinions of others influence me.

And numkcaR is right when he says "the Lovetown era is his favorite era, and AB was what 'killed' that era". I also don't like who U2 became on that album. I preferred it when they were more honest and sincere.

But if you think that the songs, lyrics, playing, singing, or anything else overall about October is better than AB, you're a poor excuse for a U2 fan in my opinion.

Achtung, on the whole, has better lyrics, mastery of instruments, and singing than October (though Larry sure as anything shines through more on October). But as overall albums, I'd take October any day over Achtung.

Because you are FAILING TO ACKNOWLEDGE what many critics, die hard U2 fans, casual U2 fans, and the BAND THEMSELVES consider to be their finest work.

U2 and critics have shit taste in music. U2 make brilliant music, but listen to some of the bands they praise - I don't know how they can listen to some of that stuff. And the less said about critics, the better.

 

[namkcuR]

That's bullshit. Achtung is one of the first U2 albums I had, I had it before October, and I have always loved the album. I just don't love it as much as October or other U2 albums. No-one here has to worship Achtung or think it's the most incredible jewel in U2's crown. In fact, I'm tired of the Achtung worship here. If anything, the continual blind praising of Achtung aids in turning me against the album - even though I try to avoid letting the opinions of others influence me.

And numkcaR is right when he says "the Lovetown era is his favorite era, and AB was what 'killed' that era". I also don't like who U2 became on that album. I preferred it when they were more honest and sincere.



Achtung, on the whole, has better lyrics, mastery of instruments, and singing than October (though Larry sure as anything shines through more on October). But as overall albums, I'd take October any day over Achtung.



U2 and critics have shit taste in music. U2 make brilliant music, but listen to some of the bands they praise - I don't know how they can listen to some of that stuff. And the less said about critics, the better.

Although I don't think U2 became neccessarily dishonest after Lovetown. Maybe with ATYCLB.

 

[allbecauseofu2]

some people might say someone sux just cause they wanna be different. like, people might be tired of hearing the beatles this , beatles that, so they just don;t repeat the obvious.

 

[Axver]

Axver actually did say it above. I sincerely hope he was exaggerating.

In personal preference, I wasn't exaggerating. If I were stuck on a desert island and had to choose between October and Achtung, I'd take October. In terms of 'can't live without' tracks, Achtung only has Acrobat while October has Gloria, Tomorrow, and Scarlet.

Of course, Achtung was faaar more influential (heck, did October influence ANYTHING of significance? I think not!) and the band's ability had improved incredibly by then. But overall album versus overall album - October, for me, is much better. Achtung is dragged down by tracks such as EBTTRT and TTTYAATW.

 

[Axver]

Although I don't think U2 became neccessarily dishonest after Lovetown. Maybe with ATYCLB.

What bothers me is that I could almost say I feel cheated by the change from Lovetown to Achtung. You have the stories from the end of the ZooTV Tour, where Bono wakes up surrounded by prostitutes in Japan. Just four years ago, on the second-last Australian show of Lovetown, he went on a rant during Knockin' On Heaven's Door, condemning the prostitution in Sydney.

I don't like who U2 were in the nineties. I loved who they were in the eighties, especially because you just don't see bands like that.

(Also, sorry for mixing up the vowels when I typed your screen name in my earlier post. I actually read your screen name around the 'correct' way with the capital at the start, hence why I muddled them when typing it out properly ...)

 

[namkcuR]

What bothers me is that I could almost say I feel cheated by the change from Lovetown to Achtung. You have the stories from the end of the ZooTV Tour, where Bono wakes up surrounded by prostitutes in Japan. Just four years ago, on the second-last Australian show of Lovetown, he went on a rant during Knockin' On Heaven's Door, condemning the prostitution in Sydney.

I don't like who U2 were in the nineties. I loved who they were in the eighties, especially because you just don't see bands like that.

(Also, sorry for mixing up the vowels when I typed your screen name in my earlier post. I actually read your screen name around the 'correct' way with the capital at the start, hence why I muddled them when typing it out properly ...)

No worries about that

Now wait a minute....are you insinuating that Bono was being unfaithful to Ali? You think he fucked a bunch of hookers in Japan?

 

[Axver]

No worries about that

Now wait a minute....are you insinuating that Bono was being unfaithful to Ali? You think he fucked a bunch of hookers in Japan?

Well isn't that how the story goes? In fact, here we go, I'll find it ...

"After an all-night drinking session in subterranean techno clubs and after-hours hostess bars [in Tokyo], Bono and [U2 stylist Fintan] Fitzgerald greet the dawn in an apartment full of semi-naked Japanese girls. One offers the singer sex and heroin, in no particular order."

Whatever happened to Lovetown U2 ...?

 

[namkcuR]

Well isn't that how the story goes? In fact, here we go, I'll find it ...

"After an all-night drinking session in subterranean techno clubs and after-hours hostess bars [in Tokyo], Bono and [U2 stylist Fintan] Fitzgerald greet the dawn in an apartment full of semi-naked Japanese girls. One offers the singer sex and heroin, in no particular order."

Whatever happened to Lovetown U2 ...?

So just because he was offered it means he took it? I can't imagine that if Bono had slept with hookers while on tour that his and Ali's marriage would still be as strong as it appears to be.

 

[Axver]

So just because he was offered it means he took it? I can't imagine that if Bono had slept with hookers while on tour that his and Ali's marriage would still be as strong as it appears to be.

The story goes on to say that he declined, left the room, and thought "this has got to stop" - but what was he doing in the room in the first place and what did he do before he went to sleep?

I find eighties U2 to be a whole lot more respectable.

 

[allbecauseofu2]

offered? did he take it. axver, what do you think of u2 in the '00s?

 

[namkcuR]

The story goes on to say that he declined, left the room, and thought "this has got to stop" - but what was he doing in the room in the first place and what did he do before he went to sleep?

I find eighties U2 to be a whole lot more respectable.

Is that first part true or are you being sarcastic?

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

Maybe Bono realised he was a bit too pompous and preachy in the 80s.

 

[Zooropean103]

I didn't read the entire thread but...


October failed cause of the cover photo

 

[miss becky]

That's bullshit. Achtung is one of the first U2 albums I had, I had it before October, and I have always loved the album. I just don't love it as much as October or other U2 albums. No-one here has to worship Achtung or think it's the most incredible jewel in U2's crown. In fact, I'm tired of the Achtung worship here. If anything, the continual blind praising of Achtung aids in turning me against the album - even though I try to avoid letting the opinions of others influence me.
.

I was gonna stay out of this, until I read this. Axver, just because you don't like Achtung Baby doesn't mean that those of us who do like it "blindly praise" it. Give us some credit, please. We know what we like, and we have reasons for it, just as you have reasons for liking Lovetown era best.

Please do not make such sweeping generalizations about people here.

We now return to our regularly scheduled argument.

 

[U2Kitten]

I didn't read the entire thread but...


October failed cause of the cover photo

I was going to say that first! Not just the pic, the entire album cover, front and back, was like it was made in a basement by some kid. (So does Zooropa, only October was made by a 12 year old, and Zooropa by some crappy 5 year olds with half melted broken crayons)

 

[namkcuR]

I was going to say that first! Not just the pic, the entire album cover, front and back, was like it was made in a basement by some kid. (So does Zooropa, only October was made by a 12 year old, and Zooropa by some crappy 5 year olds with half melted broken crayons)

Hey now! Slag off the October cover all you want, but the Zooropa cover is a work of art...I have that poster of it on my bedroom wall