New Album Discussion

[trevgreg]

I have to disagree with something here. Whether or not you feel Pop was compromised, produced poorly, ill-advised, rushed to completion whatever, I don't understand how one can't consider it cohesive or a "true album".

The track order/selection is pretty solid, especially compared to the unfortunate last-minute change on ATYCLB, the last-minute dropping of Mercy and Fast Cars on Bomb, and that desperate middle section on No Line. I wish they had made room for North And South Of The River and/or I'm Not Your Baby, but whatever.

Thematically, it's one of their most cohesive works, with Bono and other characters struggling with their faith against the dizzying backdrop of fin-de-sicle culture. He begins the album with the futile escapism of Discotheque, pleads for his mother's approval on MOFO, questions his own existence and career on Gone, and ends the album with a cynical call for peace followed by a wish to resurrect his mother. This isn't all over the place.

Sonically, I don't think this is erratic from track to track. You may not like Miami, but it flows perfectly out of Gone and transitions perfectly to Playboy Mansion, for example. It's just as well-sequenced as Achtung Baby.

When we were doing the song survivor thing recently, I went on the listen to Playboy Mansion and Velvet Dress from Pop to see which one would be getting my first vote from the album. I was pleasantly surprised to remember that they weren't as bad as some of the other tracks I consider "the worst" on other albums!

Out of curiosity, what "unfortunate last-minute" track order changes were made to ATYCLB? I sort of remember that being discussed before...

With all the talk about producers and NLOTH on here, I was motivated to find some interviews regarding it this week and found this old article on the Sound on Sound website. I'm sure some of you have read it before (as I have), and there's some interesting stuff there if you're intrigued by the whole recording process. Plus, for all the crap Boots and the other "middle 3" songs get on here, they make it look like a lot of time was put into the song... Eno and Lanois included.

Secrets Of The Mix Engineers: Declan Gaffney

 

[lazarus]

Elevation was originally the second track, where those kind of lighter, upbeat, "fun" songs usually go.

Then Walk On was followed by Stuck.

The release version has Elevation in the middle of those two more emotional songs, which makes zero sense.

There are also some changes in the second half, with Peace On Earth getting more respect on the first half of the album, and When I Look At The World given the usually important penultimate slot.

Original Tracklisting
1. Beautiful Day
2. Elevation
3. Walk On
4. Stuck in a Moment
5. Peace on Earth
6. Kite
7. New York
8. In a Little While
9. Wild Honey
10. When I Look at the World
11. Grace

 

[Vlaco]

On a side note, years and years ago I posted how I hated Wake Up Dead Man and some poster basically called me an idiot for not liking it. Well, all theses years later....I still HATE that song with a passion and think it is rubbish that took up perfectly good album space (BTW...I like POP as a whole, if only the single versions of some of those songs were on the album.....if only!)

Wake Up Dead Man is better than anything on Bomb by a huge margin.

Oh well: opinions....

 

[dazzledbylight]

I loved the chant aspect, sort of a call and response. It was really put to brilliant use on Unknown Caller.

 

[dazzledbylight]

However, his boring and derivative work on All Because of You did foreshadow some of his approach on No Line on the Horizon.

The sound of ABOY was a sonic tribute to The Who.

 

[popacrobat]

I have to disagree with something here. Whether or not you feel Pop was compromised, produced poorly, ill-advised, rushed to completion whatever, I don't understand how one can't consider it cohesive or a "true album".

The track order/selection is pretty solid, especially compared to the unfortunate last-minute change on ATYCLB, the last-minute dropping of Mercy and Fast Cars on Bomb, and that desperate middle section on No Line. I wish they had made room for North And South Of The River and/or I'm Not Your Baby, but whatever.

Thematically, it's one of their most cohesive works, with Bono and other characters struggling with their faith against the dizzying backdrop of fin-de-sicle culture. He begins the album with the futile escapism of Discotheque, pleads for his mother's approval on MOFO, questions his own existence and career on Gone, and ends the album with a cynical call for peace followed by a wish to resurrect his mother. This isn't all over the place.

Sonically, I don't think this is erratic from track to track. You may not like Miami, but it flows perfectly out of Gone and transitions perfectly to Playboy Mansion, for example. It's just as well-sequenced as Achtung Baby.

yeah. word. this.

 

[U2DMfan]

It was Bono that talked Edge back into his "Coca-Cola riff" back in 2000.

Actually it was the other way around. Bono wanted to talk him out of it until Edge gave him the dirty look and (correctly) kept the riff.

Either way it's coming from the band and not the producers. That was the point.

 

[U2DMfan]

I have to disagree with something here. Whether or not you feel Pop was compromised, produced poorly, ill-advised, rushed to completion whatever, I don't understand how one can't consider it cohesive or a "true album".

I won't quarrel that there is a cohesive theme in the lyrics, if not - arguably - even a pretty consistent narrative there.

But sonically, it's a bit all over the place, for me. Particularly the abortion known as LNOE as it is presented on the album and If God and a handful of others.

I could get into more excruciating detail* but it would be a waste of time. I don't feel that passionately about POP being disjointed. It's close enough, actually. I can just hear that they pulled back and went more...conventional. But anyway, the larger point I was responding to was more directed at the charge against Eno and Lanois. And that these mistakes in production - even down to the last minute changes (LNOE, others) - are almost all mistakes the band made.

P.S.
I love Miami. Always have. Especially the live versions (Leeds, comes to mind).

Playboy Mansion...that's another story. I also think the acoustic guitar on Wake Up has no place on the album, that's a small part of the long-ass diatribe that I'm skipping*.

Yes. People complain about the lyrics but aside from the awkward "force quit" computer stuff, I think the verses are well-written. And I love the singing on that one. Musically it's stellar.

It's about 80-90% of the way there to being one of the best songs they've
ever done. Unfortunately, it didn't make it there.

Particularly the 'greek chorus' chant.
On the clip from the movie, it sounded a lot better.
More 'churchy' and direct but better.

But yeah. There is also a hell of a lot right going on in that song.

 

[U2DMfan]

They are working closely together, specifically they were writing together on NLOTH. How do they not have input on the music ?

They do have input in the music, especially if they are writing together.

Eno and Lanois could spend 6 months working and writing with U2 on one song -
and U2 could nix that song from the album any time they wanted.

That's the point. It's their responsibility.
They decide what U2's music sounds like.

 

[trevgreg]

Elevation was originally the second track, where those kind of lighter, upbeat, "fun" songs usually go.

Then Walk On was followed by Stuck.

The release version has Elevation in the middle of those two more emotional songs, which makes zero sense.

There are also some changes in the second half, with Peace On Earth getting more respect on the first half of the album, and When I Look At The World given the usually important penultimate slot.

Original Tracklisting
1. Beautiful Day
2. Elevation
3. Walk On
4. Stuck in a Moment
5. Peace on Earth
6. Kite
7. New York
8. In a Little While
9. Wild Honey
10. When I Look at the World
11. Grace

Thanks for that. I can see where people are coming from, but unless you have a concept album there, the track listing is pretty much a moot point for a lot of people (including me most of the time). That being said, I'd put Stuck after Elevation there, and the rest is pretty much okay with me. Not sure if I agree with Peace on Earth being up there in that order... or on the album, for that matter!

Wake Up Dead Man is better than anything on Bomb by a huge margin.

Oh well: opinions....

The song hit me out of nowhere a number of years ago, and I'd say that I'm happy it made the album in the end.

It's about 80-90% of the way there to being one of the best songs they've
ever done. Unfortunately, it didn't make it there.

Particularly the 'greek chorus' chant.
On the clip from the movie, it sounded a lot better.
More 'churchy' and direct but better.

But yeah. There is also a hell of a lot right going on in that song.

For the most part, it does works musically. I don't mind the chant myself, although the chorus does move it a bit down in overall ranking for me. I get how that's something they came up with on the spot and probably kept it on as a result, but there had to be something better there, you know?

 

[last unicorn]

Original of the Species is one of my favourite U2 songs, easily, that alone makes the album great for me, There are some other very good moments on it. Apart from that, it's certainly not among their best albums and I haven't listened to it in a while. But there isn't one "bad" U2 album for me. All of them have moments to enjoy,if not as an album, than at least as a "collection of songs", a concept U2 seems to follow with most of their albums. I'm fine with that. I listen to the songs mostly with their transition to a live setting in mind. Some songs that weren't so good on the album turned out to be amazing live (Boots and most of ATYCLB). That's the problem I have with many U2 songs. When I know the live version and then go back to listen to the album version, I'm mostly disappointed.

 

[LemonMirrorSky]

Why do people hate the bomb? In my opinion its a great album, and so is no line. I don't know what they have planned next but I cant wait!

I can't speak for others obviously but here are the reasons why HTDAAB is probably my least fav U2 album:

1. Cheesy and generally poor lyrics throughout the album.
2. The production is horrendous. The loudness has been turned up to 11. It is painful to listen to say Zooropa and then Bomb back to back at the same volume. ABOY's starting squeal causes hearing damage.
3. It sounds like a bunch of made-for-the-charts hits strung together as an album. Especially notorious offenders: Vertigo, ABOY, Miracle Drug.
4. Terrible album cover! And it is especially frustrating because a better photo lies right inside the liner notes! Lazy on their part.
5. Mostly, it just gives off a "trying too hard" vibe. "We know we are the biggest band in the world. You love us! Here are our anthemic songs that also tug at your heart strings. Don't you just love us?! We can do no wrong." Meanwhile, in reality the album is a cheesebucket.

Well said. I love this album.

For me:

Great songs-
Love and Peace...sick guitar and bass
Miracle Drug....Edge's singing part is awesome
Vertigo....song just pumps me up. The first time I heard it, I was like WOW and to this day it's so energetic

Good songs-
One Step Closer(its slow and I didn't like it at first but it REALLY grew on me over the years)
City of Blinding Lights...should be in the great category but just doesn't get to that level with me for some reason
ABOY single version...the album version is average because to my ears, the chorus is off beat and not timed well....very strange


Additionally, Vertigo and City of Blinding lights have become "classics" live (ie they get the crowd going nuts)

I will say that Crumbs is a horrible song but I can find at least one "horrible" song on every album they have (POP has several) so I look at the album as a whole and this album is great.

On a side note, years and years ago I posted how I hated Wake Up Dead Man and some poster basically called me an idiot for not liking it. Well, all theses years later....I still HATE that song with a passion and think it is rubbish that took up perfectly good album space (BTW...I like POP as a whole, if only the single versions of some of those songs were on the album.....if only!)

Wow! Couldn't disagree more. You think Miracle Drug is a great song just for Edge's singing part? What about the lyrics? They're soooo lame.

And I cannot ever agree with what you said about Wake Up Dead Man. It is one of the shining gems on Pop.

Pop was wonderful because it showed a different side to the band. Do you really want a discography filled with chimes and anthemic songs tugging at the heart strings? Ugh!

Anyway, to each their own. Whatever. I've said my 2 cents.

 

[lemonfly]

The sound of ABOY was a sonic tribute to The Who.

U2 must really hate The Who

 

[mama cass]

U2 must really hate The Who

 

[U2girl]

I have to disagree with something here. Whether or not you feel Pop was compromised, produced poorly, ill-advised, rushed to completion whatever, I don't understand how one can't consider it cohesive or a "true album".

The track order/selection is pretty solid, especially compared to the unfortunate last-minute change on ATYCLB, the last-minute dropping of Mercy and Fast Cars on Bomb, and that desperate middle section on No Line. I wish they had made room for North And South Of The River and/or I'm Not Your Baby, but whatever.

Thematically, it's one of their most cohesive works, with Bono and other characters struggling with their faith against the dizzying backdrop of fin-de-sicle culture. He begins the album with the futile escapism of Discotheque, pleads for his mother's approval on MOFO, questions his own existence and career on Gone, and ends the album with a cynical call for peace followed by a wish to resurrect his mother. This isn't all over the place.

Sonically, I don't think this is erratic from track to track. You may not like Miami, but it flows perfectly out of Gone and transitions perfectly to Playboy Mansion, for example. It's just as well-sequenced as Achtung Baby.

It certainly tries to adress loss of faith/consumer obsessed culture.

However, about half of the songs don't deal with the topic. DYFL, Mofo, SATS, Velvet dress, Please and Wake up dead man.

Sonically, it's a complete mess that sounds like 4 EPs together.

Few U2 albums flow well, Pop isn't one of them. Track selection ? When a B-side/rarity is better than at least half the album (North and south of the river/Ground beneath her feet/Stateless), they failed imo. Lesser problem when they're not even going for a cohesive album though...

Anyway, anyone fluent in Spanish ?

Tarda Tardà - Catalunya Ràdio

dissabte 27 d'abril al Tarda Tardà a Icat.cat:

exclusiva U2 aquest dissabte al Tarda Tardà. De les 8 del vespre a les 10 de la nit el Tarda Tardà d'Icat.cat et torna a explicar com seran les gires d'U2 el 2014 i el 2015. I a més U2 en directe!

More news about the tour from that Catalan radio host/DJ ?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Basic Google Translate says:

Saturday 27th April to Late Afternoon Icat.cat:

Exclusive U2 Late on Saturday afternoon. From 8 pm to 10 pm The Late Late iCat. Retells cat will be like U2 tours in 2014 and 2015. And U2 Live!

 

[OpenG180]

Btw, this is not spanish. It's catalan.

Someone will tell how the 14-15 U2 tours are going to be.

 

[U2girl]

They do have input in the music, especially if they are writing together.

Eno and Lanois could spend 6 months working and writing with U2 on one song -
and U2 could nix that song from the album any time they wanted.

That's the point. It's their responsibility.
They decide what U2's music sounds like.

Well yeah. No band should bend over to the producer in the final vote. But they do debate, even if it's not a full on clash like they had on AB with Lanois or pressing on for a quick recording, like Eno wanted with ATYCLB. They usually went to Eno and Lanois (with more, or less, work from Lillywhite at any given time) for a big change in sound in the past. Not the case on NLOTH, is the point.

And speaking of Eno...he cheered on that weak, Edge-on-biggest-autopilot-of-his-life/U2 does Coldplay strings version of Winter from Linear. And he wanted MOS as the lead single.
The one time they really let him take over we got Passengers. Notice what happens with him being fully in control ?
Going back with his choices, he hated One when they were making AB and wanted to delete Streets on JT. There was also that bet with Bono he made that Stuck would be the biggest U2 hit.

In short, he can be wrong.

 

[OpenG180]

The one time they really let him take over we got Passengers. Notice what happens with him being fully in control ?

This piece of evidence is going against your case.
Passengers is one of the best thing U2 ever made.

 

[lemonfly]

And speaking of Eno.. his choices, he hated One when they were making AB and wanted to delete Streets on JT. There was also that bet with Bono he made that Stuck would be the biggest U2 hit.

In short, he can be wrong.

Those three nuggets are part of popular U2 mythology, but are not wholly accurate. U2 had recorded a "rockier" version of One, which Eno wasn't too enamoured with. He suggested a sparser production, and he was right. The Eno-wanted-to-delete-Streets has been told to death. U2 had spent an inordinate amount of time tinkering with that track, and Eno thought they would make better progress if they just started from scratch. Good call from a wise producer knowing a deadline is looming. As for Stuck, the bald wonder made a bet with Bono that it would be a number 1 single in the UK (it reached number 2 if I remember correctly). I don't think biggest hit evar entered that conversation. Ofc Eno isn't infallible, but he's gotten it right more times than he's fucked up with U2 IMHO.

 

[LemonMirrorSky]

 

[lazarus]

And speaking of Eno...he cheered on that weak, Edge-on-biggest-autopilot-of-his-life/U2 does Coldplay strings version of Winter from Linear. And he wanted MOS as the lead single.
The one time they really let him take over we got Passengers. Notice what happens with him being fully in control ?

He said that Winter needed more work. He was just mad that they dropped it to keep working on shit like Crazy Tonight.

MOS might not have been a hugely successful lead single, but it would have earned them a lot more respect. Certainly wouldn't have come off like Vertigo Part II. And probably would have been more representative of the album.

Passengers is a great album. It's not filled with verse-chorus-verse songs; that doesn't make it a misstep. The whole point of it was to convey atmospheres for (mostly) fictional films and it did that well.

 

[lazarus]

It certainly tries to adress loss of faith/consumer obsessed culture.

However, about half of the songs don't deal with the topic. DYFL, Mofo, SATS, Velvet dress, Please and Wake up dead man.

Uhh, Please is about a lack of faith in the peace process, as Bono is clearly exasperated. And begging Jesus to come back and resurrect his mother isn't exactly in keeping faith with the process of life, death, and afterlife as described in the Christian teachings.

And Mofo is another song where he's looking back on his life and career and questioning himself. It's practically the thesis of the album: "looking for a sound that's gonna drown out the world/looking for the father of my two little girls".

Thanks for playing.

 

[digitize]

Lazarus, you're doing a good job of reminding me why I like Pop.

 

[Nick66]

Those three nuggets are part of popular U2 mythology, but are not wholly accurate. U2 had recorded a "rockier" version of One, which Eno wasn't too enamoured with. He suggested a sparser production, and he was right. The Eno-wanted-to-delete-Streets has been told to death. U2 had spent an inordinate amount of time tinkering with that track, and Eno thought they would make better progress if they just started from scratch. Good call from a wise producer knowing a deadline is looming. As for Stuck, the bald wonder made a bet with Bono that it would be a number 1 single in the UK (it reached number 2 if I remember correctly). I don't think biggest hit evar entered that conversation. Ofc Eno isn't infallible, but he's gotten it right more times than he's fucked up with U2 IMHO.

Indeed.

 

[last unicorn]

Me, too. I can totally connect to the more existentialistic themes on Pop and I do like the darkness on it. There are times in my life where I can relate to these themes perfectly. There is a lot of real depth there.

 

[jeevey]

It certainly tries to adress loss of faith/consumer obsessed culture.

However, about half of the songs don't deal with the topic. DYFL, Mofo, SATS, Velvet dress, Please and Wake up dead man.

What's more expressive of loss of faith than Wake Up Dead Man? The songs that you mention are all extensions of the same theme; with the speaker's loss of faith in God, he also loses faith in the possibility of transcendent meaning, and all that's left is consumerism, alienation, and exploitation, and destructive sex. He's "looking for baby Jesus in the trash." The other songs that seem not to are mostly illustrative of the universe the speaker finds without faith- hoping for a world without sorrow or shame in the playboy mansion and so on.

Think about all the crying out that the speaker does in this record- to God, his mother, Jesus, a first lover, a present lover, to conspicuous consumption; the whole thing is a record of a man who is dying to believe in a meaningful universe and just can't. It's a very thematically cohesive record, and although one could argue about the production, it's a very good sonic representation of the themes of the album. It's a difficult record to listen to because these are difficult things to think about and experience.

 

[CosmoKramer]

.

Wow! Couldn't disagree more. You think Miracle Drug is a great song just for Edge's singing part? What about the lyrics? They're soooo lame.

And I cannot ever agree with what you said about Wake Up Dead Man. It is one of the shining gems on Pop.

Pop was wonderful because it showed a different side to the band. Do you really want a discography filled with chimes and anthemic songs tugging at the heart strings? Ugh!

Anyway, to each their own. Whatever. I've said my 2 cents.

Miracle Drug wasn't a great song just because of Edges singing but the over all sound and theme. The lyrics are a bit "cheesy" at parts ( top of a new born baby's head!). However, they are not nearly as awful as the following lyrics:


Jesus, I'm waiting here boss
I know you're looking out for us
But maybe your hands aren't free
Your father, He made the world in seven
He's in charge of heaven
Will you put in a word in for me

He calls Jesus boss? I'm guessing only to force a rhyme with "us". And the whole, "your father is in charge of heaven"....to me sounds like a lyric a child would write. I get that there is love for this song but it is soooooo bad that I just don't get it.

But as you said... To each their own!

 

[U2girl]

Uhh, Please is about a lack of faith in the peace process, as Bono is clearly exasperated. And begging Jesus to come back and resurrect his mother isn't exactly in keeping faith with the process of life, death, and afterlife as described in the Christian teachings.

And Mofo is another song where he's looking back on his life and career and questioning himself. It's practically the thesis of the album: "looking for a sound that's gonna drown out the world/looking for the father of my two little girls".

Thanks for playing.

Please is about the peace process, a jaded sequel to SBS if you will. Not fitting with the loss of faith/critisism of consumer obsessed society much of the album speaks about. Or the song about his mother, like Mofo.

Since when is Wake up dead man about Bono's mother ? It's the obligatory conversation with God type of song U2 often writes at the end of an album. (Grace, Yahweh, Cedars, The Wanderer, 40...)

 

[U2girl]

Those three nuggets are part of popular U2 mythology, but are not wholly accurate. U2 had recorded a "rockier" version of One, which Eno wasn't too enamoured with. He suggested a sparser production, and he was right. The Eno-wanted-to-delete-Streets has been told to death. U2 had spent an inordinate amount of time tinkering with that track, and Eno thought they would make better progress if they just started from scratch. Good call from a wise producer knowing a deadline is looming. As for Stuck, the bald wonder made a bet with Bono that it would be a number 1 single in the UK (it reached number 2 if I remember correctly). I don't think biggest hit evar entered that conversation. Ofc Eno isn't infallible, but he's gotten it right more times than he's fucked up with U2 IMHO.

"Too pretty", he said of One. I don't think the initial version was a rock out.

The band changed much from that early Streets version anyway...with or without Eno deleting a song.

I think the bet was the biggest hit (US).