My thoughts on why How to Dismantle sucked

[shaun vox]

elevation is a piece of crap and thats a fact!
unnecessary margin-blowing pic removed


and i still dont understand how can one put jt,ab next to atyclb,htdaab.

jt/ab are light years ahead of adultcontempary that is atyclb/htdaab!!!and thats a fact bitch

 

[AtomicBono]

...I shouldn't be here I love HTDAAB...but...

The second half of HTDAAB better than the second half of JT?

Christ almighty.

I could consider it equal maybe but significantly BETTER?! Granted How to Dismantle has one of U2's strongest second sides but we're talking about the freakin Joshua Tree here, not something to be messed with!!

Okay, I'm going to go away before I get involved in any more arguements. Like the one about Elevation. Because, well...I like that song And I like Vertigo. And I like probably every song U2 has ever done. Is that a crime?

 

[U2DMfan]

I have gotten on Vertigo for being gimmicky, which it certainly is, but in comparison to Elevation, I'd take Vertigo ten times out of ten in that matchup. Both songs suffer from Bono 2000 disease but Elevation is just craptastic all around, topped off by a video that would make Puff Daddy cringe.

Vertigo is fucking Stairway to Heaven in comparison.

 

[MrBrau1]

If you honestly think this record doesn't have the gimickry of Pop, I feel sorry for you. Vertigo is a gimick.

What gimickry was there on Pop, again? I'm not talking about the videos or tour, just the music on the record.

I feel sorry for you not being able to see through middle-aged men playing hipsters. Vertigo a gimmick? And Discotheque isn't?

 

[innocent_eyes]

I think it's good that U2 have enough diversity in their catalouge that they can write deep emotional peices, like Running to Stand Still and Sometimes You Can't Make it on Your Own, and little ditties like vertigo and elevation with a more fun, joyous and rockin energy, reminds me of their comedic nature.

If U2 had only one or the other of these two characteristics they wouldn't be as complete or versatile, and i may choose to listen to someone else!

Sometimes i like the lighter, more fun side of U2....sometimes i need something more, either way, U2 offers both!

 

[popacrobat]

HTDAAB is top 3 all time U2 albums, behind AB and JT. It's a straight rock record w/o the gimmicks of Pop. They sound comfortable in their own skin on this album, and they play off their strengths.

Yes.

 

[U2girl]

HTDAAB is top 3 all time U2 albums, behind AB and JT.

I think so too, except JT is my no. 1, followed closely by AB.

 

[2Hearts]

...I shouldn't be here I love HTDAAB...but...

The second half of HTDAAB better than the second half of JT?

Mohammed almighty.

I could consider it equal maybe but significantly BETTER?! Granted How to Dismantle has one of U2's strongest second sides but we're talking about the freakin Joshua Tree here, not something to be messed with!!

Okay, I'm going to go away before I get involved in any more arguements. Like the one about Elevation. Because, well...I like that song And I like Vertigo. And I like probably every song U2 has ever done. Is that a crime?

I guess I just take JT for granted sometimes, b/c it defines U2. And I posted on another thread that I love all of U2's albums, so my 'disrespecting' of JT's 2nd half is relative. And anyway, I was listing my favorites, not the ones I think everyone else should recgonize as the best. And if some people would take a reality check, they would realize that Pop isn't a certified classic either.
In my eyes it is, but most critics and fans wouldn't agree.

I noticed that no one attacked me for liking War better than Achtung Baby.

 

[namkcuR]

I feel sorry for you not being able to see through middle-aged men playing hipsters. Vertigo a gimmick? And Discotheque isn't?

I don't think Discotheque is a gimmick. But even if it is, it is musically 10x what Vertigo is, imo.

 

[2Hearts]

Vertigo a gimmick? And Discotheque isn't?

Numb is a gimmick. And so is Zoo Station.

 

[KUEFC09U2]

Numb is a gimmick. And so is Zoo Station.

suppose we could add lemon, playboy mansion, and miami to that list

 

[roy]

I don't think Discotheque is a gimmick. But even if it is, it is musically 10x what Vertigo is, imo.

lol!

 

[namkcuR]

Now you people have gone off the deep end. Now you're just throwing the gimmick label on songs just for the hell of doing it. My God.

 

[namkcuR]

lol!

What's so funny?

 

[roy]

What's so funny?

The fact that you don't think Discotheque was a gimmick 1st single. lol

 

[KUEFC09U2]

Now you people have gone off the deep end. Now you're just throwing the gimmick label on songs just for the hell of doing it. My God.

no the songs i mentioned are gimmicks, and am sure U2 would admit they are, gimmick=song without real meaning, but has a very feel good nature

vertigo=feel good

 

[2Hearts]

Sweetest Thing is a gimmick.

 

[namkcuR]

no the songs i mentioned are gimmicks, and am sure U2 would admit they are, gimmick=song without real meaning, but has a very feel good nature

vertigo=feel good

That is not what a gimmick is.

A gimmick is a song without musical substance that is used as a cheap way to get peoples' attention. That's why Vertigo is a gimmick.

All of the other songs you mentioned have musical substance, much more so than Vertigo.

Lemon? Are you kidding me? This is among the most musically complex songs in the entire U2 catalog. Makes Vertigo look like child's play. Not to mention the lyrics are about his mother, perhaps the most personal of all lyrical subjects.

And if you think Playboy Mansion and Sweetest Thing have no meaning(note that this is not the meaning of gimmick anyway), then you haven't been paying attention. Playboy Mansion is Bono's commentary on the phenomenon of celeberty. Sweetest Thing is an apology to his wife for missing her birthday in the recording studio, and is also a statement on the fragility of love.

And Discotheque has plenty musical substance and meaning. Discotheque > Vertigo.

And Zoo Station? For crying out loud, the song has a VERY real meaning. It has to do with where the band was at the time, moving away from what they were in the 80s and not looking back, and moving into the future. It's the whole mindset that propelled them through the 90s.

You are making ludicris claims.

 

[roy]

And Discotheque has plenty musical substance and meaning. Discotheque > Vertigo.

Dear, oh dear, you sound like one of those typical 90's obsessed fans who thought everything U2 then had 'substance'.

 

[roy]

Double post.

 

[namkcuR]

And Discotheque has plenty musical substance and meaning. Discotheque > Vertigo.

Dear, oh dear, you sound like one of those typical 90's obsessed fans who thought everything U2 then had 'substance'.

Now, that didn't sound condescending at all[/sarcasm]

Musically, there isn't even any contest. Discotheque is musically more more complex and, another way of saying that is that it has more musical substance.

Lyrically, that's more up for debate. I find meaning its lyrics, I don't think they're meaningless at all, but if you don't I won't argue about it.

I would argue about the music though.

 

[roy]

Discotheque is musically more complex.

Please

Discotheque had a decent riff which U2 couldn't use to best effect. Musically complex my arse. lol.

 

[U2DMfan]

the difference might be Discotheque was ironic with the images.
"Look at how flippant we look with a serious message"
It was the association to the image that was supposed to be ironic.

The whole concepts of the 90's were about that. Numb wasn't designed to be a 'smash 45 to lead off the album' like Vertigo, it was probably gimmicked in it's nature, but it was far more creative than a typical pop gimmick. It was a band U2, doing something it had never done. Vertigo is the archetype of 'trying to get on the radio' the band will even admit this. Numb was more "try this one on for size". Discotheque was designed to be the hit single that carried the whole ironic message of POP, at least according to Bono. So if the gimmikckry of that song is the irony, at least it's a creative and artistic step and not a ploy for more radio accesibilty.

Vertigo isn't being ironic, it's the 'smash 45 to lead off the album' that Bono described. It's the "hit song". You can see it for exactly what it is when you hear Native Son. They had a rock song, and said it doesn't have the stuff to get on radio, so they gimmicked it up. If anything with the bands consilations about POP, they would admit to maybe not have had enough gimmickry on POP to get the album more radio play. Discotheque was a song designed to carry a message, if anything it's tricked up to carry that message. A far cry from a song tricked up just to be a huge hit.

I'd consider the Discotheque and Numb arguments, and I may disagree, I think it's at least interesting to discuss. To throw Lemon into this mix is among the dumbest things I've read on this board in the last year. And Zoo Station, while that assertion is not nearly as absurd, it's still pretty hilarious. That accusation would only come from someone who wasn't around when AChtung came out. A gimmick, is a ploy to get listeners more easily, more digestable. In 1991, U2 didn't have a LESS digestable song than Zoo Station.

 

[namkcuR]

the difference might be Discotheque was ironic with the images.
"Look at how flippant we look with a serious message"
It was the association to the image that was supposed to be ironic.

The whole concepts of the 90's were about that. Numb wasn't designed to be a 'smash 45 to lead off the album' like Vertigo, it was probably gimmicked in it's nature, but it was far more creative than a typical pop gimmick. It was a band U2, doing something it had never done. Vertigo is the archetype of 'trying to get on the radio' the band will even admit this. Numb was more "try this one on for size". Discotheque was designed to be the hit single that carried the whole ironic message of POP, at least according to Bono. So if the gimmikckry of that song is the irony, at least it's a creative and artistic step and not a ploy for more radio accesibilty.

Vertigo isn't being ironic, it's the 'smash 45 to lead off the album' that Bono described. It's the "hit song". You can see it for exactly what it is when you hear Native Son. They had a rock song, and said it doesn't have the stuff to get on radio, so they gimmicked it up. If anything with the bands consilations about POP, they would admit to maybe not have had enough gimmickry on POP to get the album more radio play. Discotheque was a song designed to carry a message, if anything it's tricked up to carry that message. A far cry from a song tricked up just to be a huge hit.

I'd consider the Discotheque and Numb arguments, and I may disagree, I think it's at least interesting to discuss. To throw Lemon into this mix is among the dumbest things I've read on this board in the last year. And Zoo Station, while that assertion is not nearly as absurd, it's still pretty hilarious. That accusation would only come from someone who wasn't around when AChtung came out. A gimmick, is a ploy to get listeners more easily, more digestable. In 1991, U2 didn't have a LESS digestable song than Zoo Station.

Thank you. Finally, someone who gets it.

 

[namkcuR]

Please

Discotheque had a decent riff which U2 couldn't use to best effect. Musically complex my arse. lol.

That riff is 10x what the Vertigo riff is, imo, and U2 made full use of it.

 

[U2DMfan]

Please

Discotheque had a decent riff which U2 couldn't use to best effect. Musically complex my arse. lol.

it is much more musically complex than Vertigo.
Vertigo is designed to NOT be complex.
Need I bore you with side by side comparisons of the merits of each song sonically?
Yeah, they may just be tricks of the trade, but I think the comparisons are to Vertigo, one of the easiest songs to play in the U2 catalog. I'd refer to the difference in gimmickry in my previous post. Imagine Edge playing a Temple Bar mix of Discotheque on a banjo like he did with Vertigo, it would sound horrible. Yeah, it's just a gag, but just saying Vertigo is basic by itself. Discotheque in comparison is more complex.

I am not saying it's a revolutionary song sonically. I am saying compared to Vertigo it is. Vertigo sonically is fine, I take issue with the Bono-isms.

 

[MrBrau1]

Discotheque was a song designed to carry a message, if anything it's tricked up to carry that message. A far cry from a song tricked up just to be a huge hit.

Discotheque was U2's attempt to bandwagon jump everything happening w/ Prodigy, Chemical Brothers, Leftfield, Roni Size, etc. It WAS tricked up with a drum machine, "hip" producer, liquid guitar, and frigging gay assed "Boom Cha" outro. U2 trying very, very, very hard to fit in, and looking like complete asses in the process.

Whereas Vertigo is just a dumb rock song with a great beat, that gets buy on the energy in it, not the clothes it's wearing.

 

[2Hearts]

For the record I can't think of any U2 song I would call a gimmick (namkcuR's definition is a good one). I just wondered if anyone would agree with my 'claims' that Sweetest Thing, Zoo Station, etc. were gimmicks.

To make a few comments on your song analyses, you mention both intrinsic and extrinsic meanings. That is fine, but just be aware that w/o knowledge of why it was written, Sweetest Thing could sound blase. It's well written, but it doesn't say much that hundreds of other 'relationship' songs don't. That's ok with me, but people like zoomer probably don't think much of it.

Zoo Station has a TON of meaning when you take into account the band's new direction at the time. But it also has intrinsic meaning with a kind of 'carpe diem' theme, "Time is a train, makes the future the past/ leaves you standing at the station/ with your face pressed up against the glass"

Discotheque has plenty musical substance and meaning.

I found this very amusing. I notice you didn't try to explain it! I'll let you off the hook here b/c I find meaning in it too. Don't have time to explain though.

The main point here is that Vertigo is not a gimmick b/c it lacks meaning. It's main theme is temptation: "Your soul, it can't be bought/ but your mind can wander". For Christians, if your soul belongs to God, then Satan cannot take it. However, Satan is very happy to tempt believers and try to make them useless to God. Some religious imagery is thrown into the Club Scene: "The girl with crimson nails has Jesus 'round her neck" (Cross necklace). Bono is a good boy wink and doesn't want to do the wrong thing, "It's everything I wish I didn't know" and turns back to God, "But You give me something I can feel". He does not give in to the temptation. The lines "All of this can be yours" recalls Satan's tempting of Jesus in the desert. (Out of curiosity, how many times does Bono say this? Christ faced 3 different temptations). Finally, the line "Your love is teaching me how to kneel" echoes the sentiment of Jesus saying "Whoever wants to be great must become a servant", and also the lyric from MW "If you want to kiss the sky, you better learn how to kneel".

So Vertigo is very much based on the concept of spirtual warfare. If do not believe in anything spiritual, then maybe you would think Vertigo has no meaning.

 

[namkcuR]

Discotheque was U2's attempt to bandwagon jump everything happening w/ Prodigy, Chemical Brothers, Leftfield, Roni Size, etc. It WAS tricked up with a drum machine, "hip" producer, liquid guitar, and frigging gay assed "Boom Cha" outro. U2 trying very, very, very hard to fit in, and looking like complete asses in the process.

Whereas Vertigo is just a dumb rock song with a great beat, that gets buy on the energy in it, not the clothes it's wearing.

They didn't like 'complete asses' at all. I'm sorry you can't/don't appreciate Discotheque, but for my money it's better than anything on HTDAAB, musically. Discotheque's main guitar riff is one of the best guitar riffs in all of U2, imo.

 

[MrBrau1]

They didn't like 'complete asses' at all. I'm sorry you can't/don't appreciate Discotheque, but for my money it's better than anything on HTDAAB, musically. Discotheque's main guitar riff is one of the best guitar riffs in all of U2, imo.

For me, it the worst squander of a guitar riff in the history of rock.
This perfect riff (recorded on an acoustic guitar BTW) sits second chair to stylized beats and trendy production. What a waste.