My thoughts on the WTC massacre.

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What are my thoughts? I bet you're all dying to know.


I find it a bit disturbing. By "it", of course, I'm not referring to the terrorism. I'm referring to the reaction. Yes we're all saddened by it. Yes, it was horrible and unnecessary. Yes, it was unexpected. But it's not as unheard of as we'd like to think.


Every day, we look away from the atrocities that plague other naitions. We turn our backs to the slaughter of innocent people. We look away when the camera captures the soldier shoots the peacefull demonstrator. I'm guessing almost nobody reading this knows who Father Rufus is, what happened to him, and why.


Every day, we ignore this. Suddenly, terror srikes in our own back yard. Finally, we sit up and take notice. Oh my God. People are attacking innocent civilians? How can this happen? What does it mean? Oh no, the Palestinians are dancing in nthe streets! How horrible!


What kind of country is this where foreign people can come in and just kill innocents?


I'll tell you what kind. Normal. Yes, normal. I've been rather vocal about my distaste for the American psyche, and here it is again, biting us in the ass.


Why should an attack be so inconceivable? We know that plenty of Middle Eastern countries are at odds with this country. We're all familiar with all the violence that goes on out there.


Why is it a new thing if the people who hate us attack us?


"But they killed innocent people!"


Yes. Yes they did, and it's horrible. It's disgusting. It's heart-wrenching. It's also something the United States has done in the past.


Or do I need to remind you of two little towns in Japan called Hiroshima and Nagasaki?


"But this was an unprovoked act of war!"


Was it? I don't think so. I'm not saying it's justified by any means, but it is something that, in hindsight, seems predictable. You know how these militant fundies get. At any rate, why is it ok for us to destroy innocent lives, but wrong for others? We can dish it out, but Lord knows we can't take it.


We live on a pedestal. This is America, the world's shining beacon of liberty. This country is at the head of the free world. All other nations are inferior. This is America. We are untouchable. No one would dare cross us. Nope, because this is America.


Sound cocky? You bet. It's also the way we think. Hell, we expect everyone else to mourn for us as a nation. Of course, when it happens in other countries, we turn a deaf ear.


I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome the United States to the real world. We're no longer on that pedestal. We're just like everyone else. We always have been.


Now we're screaming for blood. We want to find ad kill whoever is responsible. Well, most of us. I don't. I think if we truly are a great nation, we need to fix the damage, save the lives, grieve the losses, and bury the dead. We need to make sure it won't happen again. We need justice, not vengeance.


I pity all the future victims of lesser terrorism against people of Middle Eastern heritage in this country caused by insane Americans out for blood.


I pity for the familes of those who were killed in the planes and the buildings.


I pity for those who are buried alive.


I pity the cocky and ignorant for the tiny bubble in which they once lived.


Most of all, I pity America for our loss.


Give blood.
 
I don't have time to respond in depth to this, and I think I'll get too worked-up trying to, so I won't. But I have to say, and again these are just my feelings right now, that I am SO SICK of hearing this kind of reaction. Don't know if this is what you're saying, but this is what I'm hearing: "Quit whining, U.S. You asked for this. You think you're better than everyone, but you're not, so get over it."
So what were we supposed to do? Should we have just said "oh, they destroyed the World Trade Center? Killed thousands? Oh. Figures. I knew that would happen. Well, I gotta get back to work." Sorry for being shocked.

Man, you are making HUGE generalizations about this country. You make it sound like you're the only one here that's outside the cocky, ignorant bubble. I don't know what my point is. Reading your take on this tragedy just really got me fire up. The past two days have just been to much. I'm livid right now. I can't even type.
 
I think you're getting the wrong thing out of this.

I've been an American all my life, and I've lived abroad, so I'm very familiar with foreign attitudes toward the US. I'm also familiar with American attitudes toward the US, and, frankly, our attitude sucks. It is very cocky and ignorant.

I'm not saying we're responsible. I'm not saying we asked for it. I'm not saying we should get over it.

What i'm saying is this:

A) We need to realize that this type of thing is more common than we think.

B) We need to unite to fix things rather than bicker like an old married couple.

C) We need justice, not revenge.
 
Originally posted by Not George Lucas:

"But they killed innocent people!"


Yes. Yes they did, and it's horrible. It's disgusting. It's heart-wrenching. It's also something the United States has done in the past.


Or do I need to remind you of two little towns in Japan called Hiroshima and Nagasaki?


Not George Lucas:

Are you seriously comparing this attack to the United State's attack on Japan during WWII? We were not at war with Japan when we bombed them? Your statement is about absurd as they get. Have a great day and if you do not like the "American attitude" do us a favor and go live abroad!

[This message has been edited by U2ME3 (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
This is the kind of thread that could really piss me off, but I'm not going to get worked up either because other threads have done that and well I'm already feeling sad anyways.

Look, we don't always turn a deaf ear. I can't tell you how many countries we have been too on humanitarian missions or to protect others that you probably aren't even aware of. The military does a lot of things people don't know about.

And why should we be the world police. You say we are on a pedestal, yet where are our allies when it becomes time to help out. These so-called "allied forces" are usually 80% USA, then 20% everyone else. We are indeed the leaders of the free-world, but we don't deserve this pedestal.

We cannot fight EVERY battle. We cannot fight EVERYONE ELSES battles. What would happen if we really did turn a blind eye to foreign problems and deal only with domestic issues like our troubled economy, or social securtiy. Maybe we should just shut our doors too, and seal off the country since we are so proud of our pedestal.

We are so proud and cocky. You gotta be kidding me.

How about a little compassion and respect, instead of this trash.
 
Frankly, I'm shocked and appalled that you're not shocked and appalled.
The irony is that in castigating the rest of us for our arrogance and naivete you come across as both arrogant and callous.
I can all but guarantee you that if an act of war on this scale happened in anywhere else in the world people would still be shocked. Can you imagine the response if an Airbus crashed into the Louvre or Big Ben?

MP
 
I was going to say the same as Not George Lucas. And don't poeple think "oh, there he goes again.. he does not care... he's not in the situation, fucking blablabla..".

I think it was very predictable.

Who are we to laugh at protesters in Seattle, Quebec or Genoa ? Who are we to turn our backs to massacres in other parts of the world ? WHO ARE WE TO PUT OUR FLAGS DOWN TODAY ???? Who are we to do this today instead of doing it since misery exists ?

Yes, since misery exists. The US claims to be the world's Free Country.... every country claims so. Someone starving is not free. Someone living in misery is not free. Someone suffering is not free. People suffering in New York are not free... people suffering in Tibet are not free.

And you know what I thought when I saw people being happy about it in Palestinia ? "Geez.... they were happy every time the US got bashed... they HAD A REACTION... and what about us, North Americans ? We didn't care at all about what was happening to THEM....". I know this is not appropriate in such circumstances, but I'll tell it anyways : those people were laughing every time the US got bashed politically. Yesterday and today was no difference. WE, North Americans in our world, didn't cared about what crimes was happening to the rest of the world. Oh yeah, we were mad a day or so when China got the olympics, or when a little human crime. Slobodan Milosevic being arrrested is nothing compared to the WTC coverage...

Palestinians had a reaction... we didn't have one. It takes bombings to us to understand ????

This is a great lesson to us, even to me... we ARE actually a part of the world. How wonder....

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La resignacion es un suicido permanente
 
From what I've been reading on some of these posts it seems that America cannot win. If we try and help other countries and causes, we are sticking our nose where it doesn't belong. On the other hand, if we refrain from action, people are blaming us for turning a blind eye. I suggest to all those who believe that the US doesn't help out a lot, that you read the article in the perspective post posted by mistyrose.

It is impossible to defend the US from such double standards. All I can say is God Bless America.

[This message has been edited by rejoicing fan (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
Who are we ? I'll tell you : we woke up, suddenly. This, in a much more phylosophical way, was a warning. The warning that we are part of the world, that we share the same problems, even if we are supposely the best, the biggest, the ones with most money... all of that does not make sense now. And yet, people are wondering about markets...

Who are we to have forgotten millions of people in Africa ? Yes, we think of them when Bono says something about them before 'One'... but if the news would take just 5 minutes to every tragedy and terrorism going in the world, months wouldn't be enough to oversee them all.

And yet, it takes WTC and Pentagon bombings to reminder us that we're not alone and we're not the center of the universe... for a couple of years, we will finally be able to feel as a part of the world, understand the tragedies....

but the north american being very futile.. we will forget soon. We means maybe me included...

Our indefference has taken us to a new level. Our arrogance has taken us where we are now. And yet, we have to deal with it and beyond anything, UNDERSTAND, wich, sadly, most people won't do....


cheers


my flag is always down in my room...

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La resignacion es un suicido permanente
 
No one is asking the US to be the superman of the world...

The world is asking itself to take its own responsabilities and the US, as well as the G8 countries, are part of it. We failed to listen to the world and I hope what happened will make us better listeners and understanders.

cheers

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La resignacion es un suicido permanente
 
Originally posted by Not George Lucas:

Or do I need to remind you of two little towns in Japan called Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Do you need to be reminded that the US essentially saved the free world during World War II?
 
Not George:

First of all, I agree with z edge and others: I don't think we turn a blind eye to the calamities of others. More than ANY other nation, we aid those who suffer, from acts of God and acts of man.

But beyond that, while I feel an intense grief for the victims -- a grief that I cannot share on this or any forum -- I DO NOT pity the United States of America.

I've recently added to my signature a quote from the brilliant film, Patton, and I agree with the spirit of the quote, and I'll tell you who I pity:

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."


[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
man, I'm glad I went to work today cause if I had stayed home all day and read shit like this I would have lost my mind, luckily I got this out of my system (hopefully) in the other thread by mug222

it's just unfortunate that we have to be lectured by everyone about how this isn't really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, oh well, I guess the lives of thousand, if not tens of thousands of civilians isn't really important when you compare it to the sufferings that other parts of the world endure... and the sentiments keep echoing through this forum saying "now you know what it feels like"

yeah, I gess so
frown.gif


-----------
I will show you fear in a handful of dust."
--T.S. Eliot, "The Waste Land"

[This message has been edited by The Wanderer (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
U2ME3 said:
Are you seriously comparing this attack to the United State's attack on Japan during WWII?

I say:
Yes. Yes I am.

U2ME3:
We were not at war with Japan when we bombed them?

Me:
Yes we were. That makes no difference. Thousands upon thousands of Japanese died at our hands because their leader refused to surrender. Did we attack a major military target in response? No. We, the United States of America, brutally killed thousands of innocent people to get our way. These were not soldiers or politians. These were civilians. War or not, we still did it. Twice, no less.

U2ME3:
Your statement is about absurd as they get. Have a great day and if you do not like the "American attitude" do us a favor and go live abroad!

Me:
How do you figure? This is exactly what I'm trying to point out. You're proving my point. Thank you.

z edge:
Look, we don't always turn a deaf ear. I can't tell you how many countries we have been too on humanitarian missions or to protect others that you probably aren't even aware of. The military does a lot of things people don't know about.

Me:
But there are a lot of things we do know about that we just ignore because it's inconvenient.

z edge
And why should we be the world police.

Me:
We shouldn't. That's my point. We act like we are, when it's not our responsibility.

z edge:
You say we are on a pedestal, yet where are our allies when it becomes time to help out.

Me:
They're at home where they should be. Why should they come and help? It's not their job.

z edge:
We are indeed the leaders of the free-world, but we don't deserve this pedestal.

Me:
We are not the leaders of the free world. That's the kind of cocky, ethnocentric attitude I'm talking about. The United States is no more free than Britain or France. The only people who actually believe the US is the leader of the free world are Americans.

z edge:
We cannot fight EVERY battle. We cannot fight EVERYONE ELSES battles.

Me:
And we shouldn't.

z edge:
Maybe we should just shut our doors too, and seal off the country since we are so proud of our pedestal.

Me:
You mean we haven't? Could've fooled me.

z edge:
We are so proud and cocky. You gotta be kidding me.

Me:
Again, you've proven my point.

z edge:
How about a little compassion and respect, instead of this trash.

Me:
Try thinking about what I have to say before posting against it. You may learn something.

Matthew_Page2000:
Frankly, I'm shocked and appalled that you're not shocked and appalled.

Me:
I am shocked and appalled, but no more than I am when I see soldiers killing peaceful protesters or hear about people like Fr. Rufus.

Matthew:
The irony is that in castigating the rest of us for our arrogance and naivete you come across as both arrogant and callous.

Me:
Callous, sure. I'll be the first to admit it. But (and this is a big but) (I just said "big but") I'm not pretending to be innocent. You can believe I'm arrogant all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that I've made these observations or that I, too, have found myself guilty of these things.

Matthew:
I can all but guarantee you that if an act of war on this scale happened in anywhere else in the world people would still be shocked. Can you imagine the response if an Airbus crashed into the Louvre or Big Ben?

Me:
I sure can. I'd imagine people would be about as pissed off about it as when those ancient Buddha statues were destroyed.

Holy John, I commend you. Should you ever visit South Bend, I'd love to meet you.
 
Originally posted by Not George Lucas:
What are my thoughts? I bet you're all dying to know.


I find it a bit disturbing. By "it", of course, I'm not referring to the terrorism. I'm referring to the reaction. Yes we're all saddened by it. Yes, it was horrible and unnecessary. Yes, it was unexpected. But it's not as unheard of as we'd like to think.


Why is it a new thing if the people who hate us attack us?


"But they killed innocent people!"


Yes. Yes they did, and it's horrible. It's disgusting. It's heart-wrenching. It's also something the United States has done in the past.


Or do I need to remind you of two little towns in Japan called Hiroshima and Nagasaki?


"But this was an unprovoked act of war!"


Was it? I don't think so. I'm not saying it's justified by any means, but it is something that, in hindsight, seems predictable. You know how these militant fundies get. At any rate, why is it ok for us to destroy innocent lives, but wrong for others? We can dish it out, but Lord knows we can't take it.


Sound cocky? You bet. It's also the way we think. Hell, we expect everyone else to mourn for us as a nation. Of course, when it happens in other countries, we turn a deaf ear.


I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome the United States to the real world. We're no longer on that pedestal. We're just like everyone else. We always have been.


Now we're screaming for blood. We want to find ad kill whoever is responsible. Well, most of us. I don't. I think if we truly are a great nation, we need to fix the damage, save the lives, grieve the losses, and bury the dead. We need to make sure it won't happen again. We need justice, not vengeance.


I pity the cocky and ignorant for the tiny bubble in which they once lived.

Give blood.

Dear Sir,

As per my signature, FUCK OFF

Truly yours,

Dave

------------------
Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.
 
When I say "we" I mean the North Americans. Of course, the Americans are very touched by this, but it was also a surprise to Canada.. close to the US, in the same sphere of Continent Defense...

Not Geroge Lucas.. I'm reconsidering trips to the USA right now lol... nah, seriously, why not...

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La resignacion es un suicido permanente
 
Furthermore, it sickens me that you people think I'm trivializing this. I'm not. I've seen horrendous shit that most of you wouldn't dream of. The WTC massacre (and I don't use that term loosely) was just as bad as all this other crap. Is that trivializing? No. Trivializing is to say that the WTC massacre is somehow worse than all that.

Each life is sacred. I truly believe that. And it's not just American life I'm talking about.
 
As an American, I can only say that we are an imperfect country in an imperfect world. Given that there is suffering and injustice abound, it is impossible, even for the US, to give aid everywhere. But we've come through for people a hell of alot more than not. When we fail we get scorned for being uncaring- complete bullshit!

Sometimes, we needed to use force to help. WWII immediately comes to mind. Not only did we save Europe's bacon, but we rebuilt the whole damn place after it was over- including Germany, Japan, and Italy.

Not GL,Your comparison to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is blind. We were involved in a war that was started by the Japanese. The losses suffered in those two cities paled in comparison to losses that would have been taken on both sides in an inevitable large scale invasion of Japan. If we were truly bloodthirsty we would have dropped both bombs on Tokyo and killed millions instead of two smaller cities.

More recent US actions in the Persian Gulf and the Balkans were unfortunate, but neccessary in both cases. It's a shame, but sometimes waco leaders like Hussien and Milosovich only understand one language- force.

Not George, you're from South Bend? Could you possibly be attending that elitist snobatorium known as Notre Dame?? If so, that could be the root of your troubles.



[This message has been edited by StarsnStripes (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
I think a point is being missed here, comparing what has happened to other atrocities that have occurred in other countries world-wide since the dawn of humanity...

This is an unprecedented TERRORIST attack of tremendous proportions, not an act of one country/government against another. For that reason, it is not only a wake-up call for us cocky Americans, it is a wake-up call for all countries.

And as a side note, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atrocities were calculated moves by our government in an attempt to save lives by ending a war that would have dragged on until Japan had depleted every last resource. Because the Japanese people believed that their emperor was also their spiritual leader, they intended to fight to the death for him and for glory, sacrificing everything. In the eyes of our government at the time, we were saving lives in the long run by forcing Japan to surrender as swiftly as possible. Two cities were attacked because Japan refused to surrender even after the devastation caused by the first attack.

Apparently I'm the only one here married to a history scholar...
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
I've recently added to my signature a quote from the brilliant film, Patton, and I agree with the spirit of the quote, and I'll tell you who I pity:

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."

Is that supposed to be uplifting? Are we supposed to take pleasure in using their guts to "grease the treads of our tanks"? There should be no pleasure in our retaliatory actions. We must do what we do in order to protect ourselves, not because we feel like jumping for joy when we do it.

I've been reading these threads all day. Frankly, the ones that simply call for maximum retaliation, and brand as terrorists any Americans who think less, well, they just make me sick. This kind of eye for an eye revenge will never solve anything. I don't know what will, but if we have the heads of the people who plan this, we won't be solving anything. Not one damn thing.



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Change is the only constant
 
Originally posted by Rono:
Spoken as a real democrat.
Actually, rono, I'm a republican

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Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.
 
Originally posted by Rono:
I did not mean the Party bud the system.
Oh Rono, please tell me that you didn't just insult Democracy. Where would the world be without Democracy? I dare say still under Nazi rule, or some previous tyrant's rule, even.
 
Stars:
When we fail we get scorned for being uncaring- complete bullshit!

Me:
You're still not getting it. We don't need to help everyone out. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that we, as a people, not a government, but a people, need to acknowledge and recognize terrorist activities worldwide. We need to realize, also, that we, as a nation and a people, are no better than anyone else.

Stars:
Your comparison to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is blind. We were involved in a war that was started by the Japanese. The losses suffered in those two cities paled in comparison to losses that would have been taken on both sides in an inevitable large scale invasion of Japan. If we were truly bloodthirsty we would have dropped both bombs on Tokyo and killed millions instead of two smaller cities.

Me:
War or not, the United States is still responsible for the slaughter of innocent people. Unless you can honestly say that each and every victim was guilty of crimes against this country, there is no justification. We look at them as a group. We think of them as a bunch of Japanese people who were enemies of the United States. We do not think of them as individuals. We don't even consider it possible that any of them might have considered the actions of the Japanese government wrong. We're somehow under the impression that each individual was anti-America and, thus, deserved to die.

Put it into perspective. If Japan had the bomb and they decided to blow up, say, Branson Missouri or Salt Lake City, would it have been justified simplt because we were in a war? No. Of course not.

Another point I'd like to make is that everyone involved in the war at the time was involved voluntarily. As far as I know, the Japanese hadn't instituted a draft system, so all their soldiers knew what they were getting into. The civilians, on the other hand, did not want to die, nor were they aware of the possibility of being bombed. Japanese or not, war or not, they were innocent civilians.

Stars:
Not George, you're from South Bend? Could you possibly be attending that elitist nobatorium known as Notre Dame?? If so, that could be the root of your troubles.

Me:
First of all, I take offense at this paragraph. Suddenly, because my views and way of coping differ from yours, I have "troubles". That's complete bullshit, and I expect an apology.

As per your question about Notre Dame, no I do not go to school there. Most people in South Bend hate the place and its students. What does that have to do with anything, anyway? Are all Notre Dame students that bad? I don't think so. You're generalizing. Stop it.

Heartland - Like I said, unless you can actually prove that all those people were prepared to die for their country and backed their government 100%, there is no justification.

Please explain to me how killing infants is a good thing.

Here's something I don't understand: Throughout this thread I've been attacked on a personal level. I can understand you're pissed off, but, although my views may differ, and my ways of coping may not be the same as yours, I, too, am suffering because of this tragedy. What I'm trying to say is if you have a problem with what I have to say, address my words, not my character. Despite what you may believe, I am neither an arrogant person, nor an elitist snob. (I'm also not callow.) I'm simply a person with an opinion and a strong anti-violence position. One thing I love about this country is that it allows people like myself to coexist with others who have different views. You cannot fault me for seeing things differently.

Think before you respond, and read over my post. You may find a golden nugget of truth in it. You're so quick to be offended, and, considering the events of the past few days, I can't blame you. Tension is high, and people are angry. Don't take it out on me.

--------------Edit--------------

I accidentally called Heartland "Meartland".

[This message has been edited by Not George Lucas (edited 09-13-2001).]
 
Everyone knows how conservative I am, and of course, I don't agree with most of what Not George Lucas said. But, I do agree with him in the belief that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unjustified.
 
I do have one question, since people in the United States get chastized for calling themselves "Americans" what do we call ourselves? What term would you like us to use so as not to offend
 
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