My experience at "Here Is What Is" + Lanois Q&A

[phanan]

i just find it weird that you have an audience with one of the greatest producers ever, and instead of asking him a question where you might gain some insight into his process and how he works and what he does and hope he might share some of that genius, you recommend he get some tips from a cancelled TV show?

Agreed, although FYI - BSG hasn't been cancelled.

 

[TheFirstBigW]

i'd like to invite everyone over to FYM.

That invitation should probably also be accompanied by a warning:

If you choose to express your personal views in FYM, you'd better have some pretty thick skin.

I spent some time in FYM once, and many of the people in that forum who claimed to be great proponents of tolerance, peace, and open-mindedness were speaking in a very intolerant, unpleasant, and condescending way towards others who have different views and beliefs than their own (especially when it comes to subjects like politics and religion)...

 

[Bonochick]

I don't think that making insulting statements about other members really belongs in this thread...or anywhere else...either.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

i would like to nominate this thread for the "the most baffeling thread i have ever seen award."

5 stars!

 

[Irvine511]

That invitation should probably also be accompanied by a warning:

If you choose to express your personal views in FYM, you'd better have some pretty thick skin.

I spent some time in FYM once, and many of the people in that forum who claimed to be great proponents of tolerance, peace, and open-mindedness were speaking in a very intolerant, unpleasant, and condescending way towards others who have different views and beliefs than their own (especially when it comes to subjects like politics and religion)...

the only thing that isn't well tolerated in FYM is bad thinking. if you lack critical thinking skills, it is like being fed to sharks, you're right.

it's not a forum for people to who want their views affirmed. it's a forum for people who want to challenge their views and the views of other. if you're going to stand up and say that God gives you the right and duty to condemn gay people and that its like alcoholism and kleptomania, that's fine. but people are going to hold you to account for such comments. and if your beliefs are worth anything, then you'd better be prepared to defend them.

and people are far more respectful in there than in, say, EYKIW.

 

[U2democrat]

and people are far more respectful in there than in, say, EYKIW.

So true...I think it requires thicker skin to say something in EYKIW than FYM.

 

[TheFirstBigW]

I don't think that making insulting statements about other members really belongs in this thread...or anywhere else...either.

It wasn't my intention to insult other members (sorry if it came across that way). I was just describing the behavior of some people that I've witnessed on those forums (perhaps it was at EYKIW rather than FYM...I don't really remember at this point), and I'm not saying that everyone behaves that way.

During my short time on those forums, I was screamed at and called several rather unpleasant names, and while I wasn't permenantly damaged by it, I didn't find it a particulary rewarding experience, either.

I don't know...if everyone here thinks very highly of those forums, then perhaps I just caught them on a bad day and ran into some trolls...

 

[last unicorn]

and people are far more respectful in there than in, say, EYKIW.

I agree. I often visit FYM, I don't post that much there, but I am always very interested in the ongoing discussions and I often learn interesting stuff there. I admit, sometimes there is a harsh tone going on or people are forgetting to respect other people's opinions, it happens when things are heating up, but all in all I really feel that the discussion in FYM is much better to handle than that in EYKIW.

 

[LMP]

Bono... beets... Battlestar Galactica.

Sorry, continue.

 

[shart1780]

LOL... the end of tat episode where Dwight comes in acting like Jim has to be the most friggin funny thing I've ever seen.

Oh yeah back on topic.

Lanois is a cool dude.

 

[Dalton]

Sadly, I am convinced there is a 29 paragraph summary of this thread being typed up for a different forum in which the author is accusing you all of being "marked".

 

[dr. zooeuss]

Bono... beets... Battlestar Galactica.

Sorry, continue.

lol!

...brilliant!

the non-sequitur bar has been raised.

;-)

 

[LemonMelon]

I agree. I often visit FYM, I don't post that much there, but I am always very interested in the ongoing discussions and I often learn interesting stuff there. I admit, sometimes there is a harsh tone going on or people are forgetting to respect other people's opinions, it happens when things are heating up, but all in all I really feel that the discussion in FYM is much better to handle than that in EYKIW.

They're too different from each other to be realistically compared.

In one, you have to have a ten-point strategic plan w/ graphs containing up-to-date information on hand in order to "win" an argument (RE: not be verbally insulted).

In the other, you name a song you don't like and, if somebody disagrees with you, they throw virtual Guinness on your face, insult you and your close relations, and the mods clean up the mess.

 

[Muldfeld]

Note to Muldfeld...... you are so obviously anti Israel.... perhaps you should read more history or talk to those that have lived the history of Israel ....My Grandmother was born in "Palestine" ....There was no such thing as The Palestinian People ..until after the state of Israel was created... Unfortunately at this time in the world ... again the Jewish people are to blame for all the ills in the world .... I have a question for you..... What exactly does a Q&A with Daniel Lanois ( whom I think is absolutely Brilliant) have to to do with the Middle East and Israel .. or did you you use this as a forum to rant about your views?.....

I was trying to say why "Love and Peace or Else" is not a song that properly depicts the situation and therefore leads to cliche views of the problem simply being religious intolerance on both sides.

I'm not necessarily anti-Israel, but I do have a major problem with how history was allowed to play out there colonially. I have met Israeli people and Jewish people who are very much against the actions of the Israeli government. They're actually the most effectively vocal sometimes.

I understand there were people like your grandfather living there before, and I'm more sympathetic to him, but the mass influx of Europeans and the terrorist tactics undertaken to ethnically cleanse the area was unjustified as is the continuing occupation. Many rich Jews from the West still come to take advantage of the situation and settle disputed lands, and this is especially reprehensible.

That said, it's a difficult thing to challenge when your family has lived there for generations, and it's your home, so I understand your reaction. I'd find it hard if natives were given back their land and I lost my home, but these kinds of things were not legal or supposed to happen in a post-colonial world.

 

[lancerla]

While there are a lot insane thoughts and opinions in the first post, the most ridiculous one is about BSG being the best American show.

The Wire won't stop gangs, but it's the greatest show in the history of television! Unfortunately, like BSG, it can't help Bono writer better songs.

 

[Muldfeld]

While there are a lot insane thoughts and opinions in the first post, the most ridiculous one is about BSG being the best American show.

The Wire won't stop gangs, but it's the greatest show in the history of television! Unfortunately, like BSG, it can't help Bono writer better songs.

Okay, then, 2nd best.

I watched the first 5 episodes of The Wire. I wasn't too impressed. They weren't nearly as great as the BSG miniseries or any episode in Season 1. Still, I plunked the cash, and I'll probably get around to watching the rest of the season.

In any case, The Wire doesn't discuss larger world-wide themes. It's very America-specific. I've never seen a show discuss themes as truthfully as BSG, except maybe aspects of Star Trek: DS9 and The 4400.

I think any complex art that honestly communicates the problems facing the world -- beyond the cliche Bono's relied on recently -- will help him get back to writing the truth, as he did on "Bullet the Blue Sky", "Silver and Gold", "Mothers of the Disappeared", and "Please."

By the way, that 's a very mean-spirited response on your part.

 

[Muldfeld]

Why are you expecting Bono to save the world?

I mean seriously, he does more than the average man, but no one should be asked this much of...

What are you doing? You try and place this weight on Bono, what are you doing?

I don't think he can do it alone, but, through U2's art, the band have always sought to illuminate the human condition an accurately depict what's wrong in the world. I'd like him to more effectively meet that end, as he used to.

People used to joke that it was pointless that pop musicians could HELP save the world, but I believe U2 were right in doing what they did. What I ask in depicting the problem accurately so more Westerners understand is very much an extension of that mission the band layed out for itself very early on.

 

[Muldfeld]

Battlestar Galactica rocks.

As always, Uberbeaver, you are my comrade in arms! Thanks.

Agreed, although FYI - BSG hasn't been cancelled.

I effectively has been made to end in Season 4 because the network almost didn't give it this season and wouldn't promise Season 5 without seeing the ratings. Seeing as how people download like mad and DVR stuff, it's highly doubtful the ratings will improve. Ron Moore decided to speed up things and end in Season 4 rather than get cancelled. He admits the show could have had another season, but has reconciled himself that this shall be the end.

 

[Muldfeld]

Rant.

And ramble.

But, when someone truly believes that if a band could just watch Battlestar fucking Gallactica, they could then make an album that could help save the world, or at least the Middle East from the evil Jews, do you just need to say to yourself "consider the source" when reading their rants/ramblings?

There are so many things that are wrong with the initial post that I don't know where to begin.

I've never said Jews were evil. That's a gross distortion of what I've said and it's cheap of you. I believe the actions of Zionist Jews in colonizing the land belonging to Palestinians, especially in pushing beyond the 1948 UN borders, was an evil act. Same with European colonization of the Americas at the cost of the natives, yet they weren't "evil," but they did do an EVIL ACT. So was 9/11 evil.

However, it doesn't mean they were inherently evil and I certainly have been careful to distinguish between Zionist colonizers and settlers and many Jews in the West and even in Israel who disagree with these actions.

I'd not call someone criticizing Iran automatically racist, but you'd do that to me. If you think I'm anti-Semitic for what I've said, you then think the same of Amnesty International, the UN, Noam Chomsky, Ira Steven Behr, Steven Spielberg as evidenced by many comments made in "Munich", and many, many other activists and artists.

Also, Vanessa Redgrave in a 60 Minutes interview, despite Mike Wallace's smugness:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=2879516n
She was attacked for that, too, so I guess it comes with the territory.

It's very wrong of you to say that.

Muldfeld,

I applaud your effort to have a serious discussion in here. I don't completely understand where you're coming from on all of it, nor do I think I agree with you on all of it, but it's good to see someone trying to raise the level of conversation here.

To everyone piling it on about battlestar galactica, you've made your point, there are plenty of other threads (or start new ones) that can be devoted to jokes...

...nothing against humor, but recycling jokes multiple times at the expense of someone who's trying to communicate their ideas and views is uncalled for...

Thanks very much for your kind and respectful words, Dr. Zooeuss, especially since you don't agree with everything I've said. It's very decent of you.

Muldfed's views on Israel are in my opinion pretty ridiculous to say the least. He or she clearly used this forum simply as an excuse to espouse some extremely warped opinions. This simple-minded approach does not take into account that the Jewish people had just gone through one of the most atrocious genocides in all of human history with 6 million brethren systematically killed by the nazis, and were fortunately able to return to the homeland that they had lived in for thousands of years, when the surrounding arab regimes immediately waged war in a STATED attempt to destroy and drive all the Jews into the sea. Fortunately the Jewish people staved off a second genocide by winning the war of 1948.
Moreover, terrorism, especially against innocent civilians should never have a place or be condoned. Dialogue and compromise are the only real solution (not "give me land and I won't kill you for a little while.") Palestinians are taught extreme anti-israel hatred and propoganda from the earliest childhood systematically in school. One Palestinian girl was graciously treated at a hospital in Chaifa and used the good will to to try to get back into that hospital and blow up as many patients and doctors and nurses as she could and was fortunately stopped. This is a poisonous mentality that Israel has to deal with every day.
Point is, Israel is far from being the main or only one at fault. Thanks to the other wonderful posters who stood up against this nonsense. I too would be pretty happy if this thread gets closed.

Please see the answer to the first post in this cluster of answers.

The Holocaust was a terrible thing, and it was important to bring those responsible to justice. I can understand the Zionist movement in that respect. As I'd mentioned early on, the trauma of that event helps explain why so many engaged in this act. They were trying to do justice for the Jewish people, but, as is often the case, justice for one group can often mean injustice for another. The Palestinians were not to blame for the Holocaust.

I don't support the Arab regimes that did this. They haven't really done much for the Palestinian people and are often referred by the State department as moderate when they are highly repressive and are the cause for the spread of fundamentalist ideology and Al Qaeda-type groups. The actions of the Arab regimes supposedly defending Israel should not be equated to the Palestinian people. They were forced to leave their homes and, to this day, are occupied and have their resources diverted, and are not treated equally by Israel's government, which constantly makes decisions concerning their lives with no input from them. Even the Israeli Supreme Court has disagreed with government policy as being too brutal.

Also, while I agree the hatred Palestinians are perhaps taught about Israelis is sad in not seeing them as full human beings, Israelis are taught some very propagandistic stuff, and not properly told their history. I've seen news and documentary footage of Israelis who were only recently coming to understand how the Palestinians live.

I agree that terrorism is terrible, but so is war. You mention innocent deaths and I find it disturbing to see people blown up in cafes, but I was also disturbed by the over 1000 Lebanese massacred by Israel's army in 2006, when they could have simply agreed to a prisoner exchange. Did that disturb you? In war, there's always a toll of innocent people who are going to be the victims of torture and "collateral damange". In Vietnam, how many millions of Vietnamese have died and are still suffering from exposure to Agent Orange resulting in birth defects. How about the deaths that result from land mines every day around the world. Terrorism is just another means of the weaker opponent. The morality of the act depends on the goals of the group and the target. Wouldn't you have suicide bombed Hitler?

 

[Muldfeld]

Galactica's a great show, but come on, haven't we had this conversation before?

There's absolutely no way Bono or the band will become saviors after playing a 4 minute song inspired by Adama kicking Cylon ass for 3 seasons.

That's like saying watching The Wire will solve gang violence.

I didn't say they'd solve it alone, but we're all connected, right? Everything we do affects something else. If the art is correct in depicting the issues our world faces, then people come to understand them, and we come closer to understanding how to solve them and what is needed.

I never said U2 could do it alone. I don't know where people are getting this.

By the way, the writers of BSG and The Wire and my favorite shows only write these things to be part of the solution, just as U2 has with its best lyrics.

 

[Muldfeld]

Props for speaking your mind.

After all that buildup, though, I expected that you were going to critique the band's last two albums and suggest a change, encourage the band to revisit dark themes, cut themselves off from a search to satisfy the mainstream.....or some other of the several oft-repeated half theories and wishes of a vocal group around here. Instead, I found that asking the band to watch a sci-fi tv show for lyrical inspiration to hit like a cottonball falling to the floor.

I think the image of U2 fans everywhere was just knocked down a few notches.

I wanted to say that stuff, but there just wasn't enough time. I alluded to it in saying, "you've probably heard the comments about how U2's music has tended to be more simple and have obvious lyrics." I just wanted enough time to say what I wanted. It's really hard to speak under pressure; I could barely think clearly and I wanted others to have time to ask questions. In any case, he got the message, which is why he asked if what I'd heard sounded good.

And that last comment of yours was a bit harsh. Don't worry. No other U2 fan will ever say that to Lanois ever again! By the way, a U2 fan expressed solidarity with what I'd said as we left the room.

i just find it weird that you have an audience with one of the greatest producers ever, and instead of asking him a question where you might gain some insight into his process and how he works and what he does and hope he might share some of that genius, you recommend he get some tips from a cancelled TV show?

Well, I felt I learned quite a bit from the documentary and that others were going to ask their question, but I really wanted to propose this. I mean, what answer could I have possibly gotten from this question in the small amount of time allotted? They're very free-style in the studio, as one can see in the Unforgettable Fire documentary or the making of The Joshua Tree. They jam, and they all work at trying to isolate moments that could be used for songs, and then they try all kinds of effects.

It just wasn't where my heart was. I really feel it could serve as another artistic inspiration that is extremely important in depicting the human condition.

 

[Muldfeld]

This thread is very bizarre, to say the least. On one hand there are some very funny jokes being made (U2 Girl's BTBS parody is one of the best things I've read on here in ages), yet also disturbing on another level.

It's amazing how any time someone criticizes Israel's policies, they are immediately branded as some kind of intolerant Jew-hater. If you go back and read what Muldfield said, he never used the word "Israelis" or "Jews". He referred to Israel itself, which to me means its government. Why don't you just go ahead and call him a Nazi and Anti-Semite? It's the easiest way to discredit anything he may have said in the interest of a serious discussion.

As someone who was raised Jewish (including learning rudimentary Hebrew and being Bar Mitzvahed), I've seen this attitude many times, and it comes at no surprise that people are playing the victim so quickly. Look at Jimmy Carter, a hero of the Israel/Egypt Peace Agreements back in the 1970's and NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER, who attempted to write an objective book about the conflict, titled "Palastine: Peace Not Apartheid". When he suggested that Israel may not be playing completely fair with the Palestinean territories, he was attacked by the usual suspects like the Anti-Defamation League, who view any suggestion of Israeli government wrong doing as an all-out assault on the Jewish people. While I understand that Anti-Semitism is alive and well, and that Jews should always be on guard for those who would try to add to the history of discrimination and intolerance, this inability to have an objective discussion does no one any good.

The United States and Israel have on numerous occasions ignored or reneged on United Nations resolutions, and haven't shown themselves to be fair partners in peace. While death and destruction can be attributed to both sides, it bothers me that a suicide bomber can be called a terrorist while a tank blowing up women and children is just considered a military action. History has made it very difficult to sympathize with a much larger and stronger power over a smaller one that is trying to attain some kind of freedom for itself. I don't think this case is necessarily any different.

Back to my main point, it's my understanding that most Jews worldwide, and most Israeli civilians aren't as hardlined about this situation as the Israeli government. So when one criticizes the political entity, how does that translate to a generalization of its citizens? When people protest George Bush all over the world, I don't take it personally.

Thank you so much. It takes a lot to criticize one's own. You echo my thoughts exactly.

 

[Muldfeld]

That's what I was thinking.

If you guys wanna talk about U2-related stuff pertaining to the new album, fine. That's what this forum is for. But if you wanna get purely political...please take it to FYM.

I also think if you want to talk about Battlestar Galactica in any way that doesn't relate to U2...please take it to Zoo Station. In fact, there's already a thread about it:

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164334

I just read this now. If you'd like me to start a new thread in FYM with these responses, please feel free. Please don't delete these responses to date, though. Thanks mod, for also encouraging politeness.

 

[Muldfeld]

Bono... beets... Battlestar Galactica.

Sorry, continue.

Preposterous. From how Bono's been writing recently and kaotaoing to Condie Rice and the rest of the Bush administration and speaking softly on Iraq and given Bush and Blair the benefit of the doubt (in exchange for help with Africa), and barely touching world issues, except in the most cliche way, Bono could learn a LOT from the new Battlestar Galactica. I'd much rather have a conversation with Ron Moore than Bono. I'd probably feel more nervous, too. I think Bono's a smart guy with tremendous conviction, but he's spoken of some issues not honestly enough, in my opinion.

Since he's become a political lobby for African aid (and I have tremendous respect for his work on this), his stance on some political issues have compromised his ability to properly express the nature of other political issues.

 

[An Cat Gav]

Once Dirk Benedict left Battlestar that programme died. Starbuck rules!
They also plan to bring back Knight Rider without The Hoff! What's the f$%%ng point of that!!!

 

[Muldfeld]

In response to blindinglights, I accidentally wrote:
"The actions of the Arab regimes supposedly defending Israel should not be equated to the Palestinian people."

I actually meant:
"The actions of the Arab regimes supposedly defending Palestinians should not be equated to the Palestinian people."

Once Dirk Benedict left Battlestar that programme died. Starbuck rules!
They also plan to bring back Knight Rider without The Hoff! What's the f$%%ng point of that!!!

Never watched the original, I'm afraid, but old Dirk has publicly stated that he hates that they made Starbuck a woman and added all this complicated drama in which it's not easy to discern good guys from bad. That's why I love the show and probably why I wouldn't like Mr. Bennedict, no offense to you. I think, when I was 3, I used to like Face Man from A-Team, though.

To keep this on topic I wanted to futher add to what I said to Ultoo in saying that U2 have already expressed a desire to shift back to non-self-consciously commercial records and Eno himself in the documentary has commented on his interest in complexity, as I said with this excerpt from my first post:

"If you look back at the press from "All That You Can't Leave Behind", you'll find quotations of Eno saying that there's a difference between music that's fun to make and which tends to be complex, and music that's fun to hear. In the lead-up to the 2000 album, he and Bono had discussed the timelessness of popular Beatles songs that were so simple, you could hear them from a window or in the next room. Thus, the mission statement for "All That You Can't Leave Behind" was to simplify melodies. This notion has always bothered me, especially in the last few years, given the results in U2's music which has appealed more to the mainstream but sacrificed creativity and uniqueness. Now, in Fez, Eno was telling Lanois that he likes complex things. He's bored by simplicity. If this is going to be the attitude as these two co-write with U2, I'm very excited. I hope they fight all the way for this vision of not surrendering to the mainstream, but just write great quality music."

Furthermore, Lanois himself has stated that the new sessions feel like Achtung Baby times. I was nervous, but I also didn't see a point in telling him what U2 should do. They'd probably agree with us completely, based on what they've said about music and the new album. It's really up to Bono, and I'm sure he'll already tell Bono to do what we wish he would.

So, all-in-all, I don't regret not driving the point home further. I alluded to it, and I think that hit him harder than anything else I said, given his response to me. I think he took my BSG remarks quite seriously, too, though. He was very kind. And those dark themes are already in BSG -- the difficult side of romance, adultery, family tensions, serious political issues, suicidality. It's all there, baby, much darker and more vivid than anything on my favorite album, "Achtung Baby."

People are joking that it's some silly sci fi show, but it's the most realistic TV drama I've ever seen, and I'm quite sure the passion with which I said this would have convinced an open-minded person like Lanois that it's worth checking out. I mean, what higher compliment is there for an artist than to be moved by her/his work? As an artist, I think Mr. Lanois may have been persuaded by that, since he and U2 often seek to have that same effect on their fans. He'll hopefully think, "Whoa, that must be SOME show to make him have the guts to get up and encourage U2 to watch that." And he'd be right.

 

[An Cat Gav]

Aside from my frivolous comment on BSG I respect all that you have posted and agree with most of it.
WIth regard to your last comments about the new album I agree with you entirely. I hope that Eno and Lanois can lead our heroes down a very exciting musical path again, one of musical complexity and brilliance.
I will needto give the new series of BSG a try, you make it sound incredible.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

dude, honestly... you asked daniel lanois to tell bono that if he watched more klingons he'd write better songs.

what did you expect the reaction here to be?

 

[Mrs. Garrison]

 

[dr. zooeuss]

amazing to see this thread still going...

after all of this, i may have to check out that show, i've heard at least three separate recommendations for it now...