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Or one can say you find one link to be a conscious one because you like the albums and the other is just lazy because you don't like the song.
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Or one can say you find one link to be a conscious one because you like the albums and the other is just lazy because you don't like the song.
"And you can dream, so dream out loud" - Acrobat
"She's gonna dream up the world she lives in, she's gonna dream out loud" - Zooropa
"And if you dream dream out loud" - Always
For someone that gets accused of ripping himself off in this last decade, the guy stole from himself in less than 2 years.
While the idea above is nice, I think that's giving Bono a little too much credit. I don't think he writes that consciously - I guess he just likes that idea and it was around and on his mind in the early 90's.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Sounds just like SUC to me. High gain, slight flange when necessary...not to my taste, personally (I wish it were a bit drier), but not really an obstacle or anything. My bigger issue with Edge is that the riffs have been extremely unimaginative, more tribute than inspiration, and it mires a track when it's such a significant piece of the song. Discotheque works because the song has a solid beat underneath the riff that drives the song, with the riff as aural garnish. GOYB's riff, on the other hand, is the song, mirrored by the bass also, and it's just a drag. SUC's riff is plain clunky, although the bridge is damn cool, and I like his little Byrdsian flourishes in the second verse very, very much.
While I was initially thrilled that Edge was flexing his guitar hero muscles, I'm more and more beginning to realize that he's not capable of writing a riff as singularly propulsive and fuckyeah-inducing as, say, Black Dog. And that's what he's trying to do. Edge is a brilliant sonic sculptor, an artist with reverb and delay who can create moods and textures with a handful of notes, and he can even turn them ugly and harsh while simultaneously moving the listener (see: Achtung Baby). That's something very rare and valuable. I wish he'd get back to that. Lately, he's been so stuck on the riff itself (Walk On rewrites, Page-aping) that he's lost the adventure in his work that makes TUF such a compelling record, even when there was no specific structure to dress up.
dan_smee
ONE love, blood, life
It's all good. I wasn't saying that you were calling anyone a retard, just that when someone argues that aggressively that something like that is fact, you can feel like a moron for privately liking it.
It was definitely escalated by a number of people here and it wasn't called for. Just as you say you were getting hostile, they were getting hostile by using the opposite argument.
As I say, you are one of our best contributors, and I always appreciate reading your stuff. I am very happy you took my comments in the spirit they were offered
dan_smee
ONE love, blood, life
All this talk of self-reference... Why is it a big deal? It is a nice way to tie the catalogue together. It gives all the songs a feeling of inter-connectivity. EBW has a few common themes that tie it together with NLOTH album perfectly (I know a girl who's like the sea). The lyrics feel to me like it is the missing link from being a great collection of U2 songs, and a cohesive, well formed concept album.
Referencing yourself in your song-writing is at least much better than stealing from others *cough*chrismartin*couch*
Referencing yourself in your song-writing is at least much better than stealing from others *cough*chrismartin*couch*
God Part III
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Speaking of Chris Martin, I don't think his feet have touched the ground for a good while now.
That aside, Acrobat -> Zooropa has to be a conscious reference.
Just like squeaky clean on Zooropa and Miami. There are more lyric links, but I'm to tired to remember/track them down. I'm sure he does this consciously, or, let me rephrase, if there is one thing I'm sure of, it's that Bono takes songwriting and lyrics much more seriously now than in the 80's (although that hasn't necessarily made him better)
And I love these lyric links, and I really like Every Breaking Wave's lyrics. I'm with Lazarus in as much as Zooropa and Pop standing out as the peak of Bono's songwriting, but that doesn't mean his current lyrics are bad, they're just different, which I think says a lot about his versatility as a songwriter.
/hail Bono
That aside, Acrobat -> Zooropa has to be a conscious reference.
Just like squeaky clean on Zooropa and Miami. There are more lyric links, but I'm to tired to remember/track them down. I'm sure he does this consciously, or, let me rephrase, if there is one thing I'm sure of, it's that Bono takes songwriting and lyrics much more seriously now than in the 80's (although that hasn't necessarily made him better)
And I love these lyric links, and I really like Every Breaking Wave's lyrics. I'm with Lazarus in as much as Zooropa and Pop standing out as the peak of Bono's songwriting, but that doesn't mean his current lyrics are bad, they're just different, which I think says a lot about his versatility as a songwriter.
/hail Bono
popacrobat
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
imo, it's also much easier to appreciate lyrics in the full context of a song. we've not heard the proper versions of every breaking wave or north star. as has been repeated, nearly every U2 song suffers when being stripped down acoustically, except for staring at the sun - and I think Walk On worked pretty well acoustically on Vertigo too.
God Part III
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
^^
Also very true.
Can't wait for studio versions, I'm so excited.
Also very true.
Can't wait for studio versions, I'm so excited.
iron yuppie
ONE love, blood, life
Is it safe to say that 2000s Bono has become very direct in terms of lyrics? Atomic Bomb, for instance, is full of overt lyrics and themes. Songs like "Sometimes You Can't Make It on Your Own" and "Crumbs from Your Table," for instance, leave little room for interpretation.
1990s Bono was more subtle and metaphorical: compare, for instance, the lyrics of "Please" to those of "Peace on Earth." I think that, given Bono's efforts to present certain issues as a universal concern, it is not surprising that his lyrics would become more direct. That will involve some degree of cliche, but cliche is also familiar and easily understandable. Striving for a universal appeal will necessarily involve some degree of over-generalization and cliche.
1990s Bono was more subtle and metaphorical: compare, for instance, the lyrics of "Please" to those of "Peace on Earth." I think that, given Bono's efforts to present certain issues as a universal concern, it is not surprising that his lyrics would become more direct. That will involve some degree of cliche, but cliche is also familiar and easily understandable. Striving for a universal appeal will necessarily involve some degree of over-generalization and cliche.
zooropop40
Refugee
Not a big Chris Martin fan, but what exactly did he steal?
The John Tree
War Child
I don't think that "dream out loud" in Zooropa to reference Acrobat, I think it was just used because Bono likes the line a lot. This is a man who likes slogans, who likes catchphrases and uses them frequently. Read 40 different interviews with Bono in one album promotion cycle, and you'll likely find one or two recurring phrases. Dream out loud, I think, is one of them.
And "dream out loud" was actually from 1989, the end of the Lovetown tour.
"Dream up the world you want to live in. Dream out loud, at high volume. That's what we do for a living. Lucky bastards!" is a quote from Bono at the 12/30/1989 show at the Point Depot.
And "dream out loud" was actually from 1989, the end of the Lovetown tour.
"Dream up the world you want to live in. Dream out loud, at high volume. That's what we do for a living. Lucky bastards!" is a quote from Bono at the 12/30/1989 show at the Point Depot.
bonocomet
Blue Crack Distributor
He first used the phrase "original of the species" somewhere back in the late 80's too.
(not in a song but in an interview)I think it's true he loves certain words and phrases and just likes revisiting them.
Niceman
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Bono spends years AGONIZING over his lyrics. Sometimes, even after that, we get clunkers, but i assure you the references between the songs are not drunken accidents!
Wow, you people have no faith at all, do you???????
Wow, you people have no faith at all, do you???????
jphelmet
Refugee
Years agonizing? Do you have a source for this?
Wow, you people have no faith at all, do you???????
As opposed to blind faith?
Aygo
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I never got the thing fans have with these lines. I don't see anytying wrong with the analogy heavy -> truck. It's only a question of what these words mean and reflect in our minds as linguistic beings we are. For me, as a portuguese native, this comparison would sound very well in such lyrics like this. Maybe for brazilian speakers of portuguese it doesn't.
Bono has definitely let down the quality level of his lyrics a little, but I think he still does write intersting things. And NLOTH brought lots of it, I think.
The only thing I really really dislike in Bono's most recent lyrics (from 2000 on) is those songs where each line on the verses (and on the choruses sometimes too) are mere statements, mere loose ideas that have no driving line at all (even if in the end there's a whole idea for the song). The most flagrant case of this is "Crazy Tonight". Uffff, it has interesting lines separately, but as a whole, this song is atrocious in the way we're led to read (listen to) the "story" this song tells. Other songs like "Vertigo" and GOYB have a little of this method, personally, I don't like it, I don't think it works.
I really hope Bono gets away from it in the future.
To write beautiful and deep lines doesn't make them good alone.
"Midnight is where the day begins" sounds pathetic out of context, but it's genial, for me, when inserted in "Lemon"'s lyrics. It's the opposite case.
Sorry for the off-topic, but since we were discussing lyrics from EBW some pages ago, I remembered to express this idea, since it's related.
subnet
New Yorker
i much prefer "the air is heavy -- heavy as a truck" than "the air is light -- light as a bike". i can understand how bono agonizes over those lyrics.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
No. No, he really doesn't. Much of HTDAAB's lyrical content was written in a matter of weeks, and don't even get me started on TUF or October. His ideas are perhaps in gestation for a long period of time, but I can only speculate on that. Looking into Bono's head sounds like a bad idea on many levels.
dan_smee
ONE love, blood, life
I was referenceing the Viva la Vida court case, not necessarily lyrics theft, more music theft
purpleoscar
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Edge should also remember that he made fun of a lot of that guitar hero posturing on "It might get loud". Of course he's not into 11 min guitar solos and 11 min organ solos, but there's a Pink Floyd spirit in the band. Though I'm a little partial for guitar solos.
The only problem is that what would happen to U2 sales if they created another The Unforgettable Fire? The public finds NLOTH hard to understand already and I can see some TUF similarities in much of the music. I hope U2 don't dumb down their music to get idiots to like them. If the U2 spy plane crashes I want it to crash with music that can be listened to for years to come.
Good, you love NLOTH. I suspect we agree it is mostly a step up lyrically from ATYCLB and HTDAAB.
Who the fuck am I to assume you are stuck in the 90s?
First off, thanks for proving why everyone is sick of you, its the tone again.
Second, go back and read your last 8 pages of posts where you repeatedly made Zooropa and Pop out to be the walk on water lyrical albums from U2 in contrast to almost everything else that had been released.
Its not like I pulled this stuff out of nowhere. I don't keep secrets around here, I go on what I see.
I didn't tell you how to spend your time, you are giving me way too much power here. I simply suggested that maybe complaining about the same thing over and over again and condescending to anyone who disagrees is not doing much for you or anyone. As Salome said, its not like we will ever agree.
The part of your post that I bolded/underlined is flat out absurd. Since when have I ever had a problem with dissent here? I have criticized U2 plenty here. I defend them more than criticize, but you will see multiple strongly worded complaints about the number of ATYCLB songs in the 360 set list from me. That is just the most prominent example.
I can think of 1 or 2 true sycophants here, and they are certainly not me, Laz. Certainly not me.
One of the most overused and sad tactics of Laz and his ilk is to accuse anyone who doesn't share their opinions of being a blind sycophant who will not tolerate dissent.
I don't care what you think, whether it is against a decision of U2 or in opposition to something that I think. Never said I did.
All I did was remark on how I was, along with many others, getting sick of your attitude.
Nice try, though.
The whole post was a good effort at trying to condescend to someone it wont work with
And you are going to tell me what this has to do with you, now, right?
Why don't you stay out of this unless you have something greater than a 1st grade maturity level to add?
ozeeko
Refugee
U2 sucks
popacrobat
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
So about that new music. Again.
zooropop40
Refugee
Yea, all their songs sound the same and Boner is so egotistical!
ok, ok, back on topic...
Vlad n U 2
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lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
"And you can dream, so dream out loud" - Acrobat
"She's gonna dream up the world she lives in, she's gonna dream out loud" - Zooropa
"And if you dream dream out loud" - Always
For someone that gets accused of ripping himself off in this last decade, the guy stole from himself in less than 2 years.
While the idea above is nice, I think that's giving Bono a little too much credit. I don't think he writes that consciously - I guess he just likes that idea and it was around and on his mind in the early 90's.
Well I'm certainly not defending Always. But I think there's a difference between two songs that were written a couple years apart, and one that was written almost a decade later when the band was in a completely different mode creatively.
Yeah, that's it.
Don't question my objectivity just because you want to be contrary. It's boring.
Acrobat is written from the perspective of someone who is at some kind of personal/artistic crossroads. The whole idea of "dream out loud" is something that has clearly manifested itself with ZooTV, and then a song written while on that tour explores the idea of discombobulation in the modern world and references that major idea again. Of course it's conscious.
On the other hand, Bono writes a song in 2008 that recycles a line from a 10 year-old song which seems to share nothing thematically, at least based on the transcriptions we've seen.
And you're telling me there's an equivalence there, and my bias is seeing a difference where there is none?
Give me a fucking break.
I agree with what you're saying re: Bono's practices, but I don't think that his sloganeering du jour and him intending to reference Acrobat are mutually exclusive.
If U2 is at the end of an era and on the verge of a transformation, don't you think that him saying "dream out loud" in 1989 is going to lead into the stuff he's writing in 1990/1991? Or that this specific slogan has informed the concept of the tour to an extent?
Again, I'm linking the two songs because one is the penultimate track on one album, and the other the opener of the next. And I find that the songs are very much related; one is about finding the light at the end of everything, and the other is trying to pull one's self out of the overload of stimuli found on the other side of that portal. They go hand in hand.
bonocomet
Blue Crack Distributor
I agree with that definitely. While I can't say whether his lyrical duplications are always related or not, it's pretty easy to believe that one is.
Earnie Shavers
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Yeah, it does suggest they’re more likely to do things un-U2.
I just think that because of the way they regard their material (it’s never finished), treat their material (hoard it like a crazy cat woman for you-never-know-when), the likely uncertainty of what major thing they want to do next (different opinions on that, no doubt, and strong feelings about pet favourite projects or songs), and the sheer amount of material they seem to have, means that I think an EP would pretty much be the most difficult option for them as a band to actually put together. Think about the process, their history with this sort of thing (material sorting and decisions), and where they’re at with all of these projects at the moment. Pulling *just* 4-5 songs aside, declaring them as finished, with no future or home elsewhere, and possibly gutting/killing one of these three projects along the way? Not likely. I actually think that even if they do decide “Right, EP it is!” I bet that process results in 45% chance they end up releasing a whole album, 45% chance they release absolutely nothing, 10% chance they release something but it's not what we are really talking about here (e.g. if they released, say, Glastonbury and a remix of something and a couple of No Line alternate tracks and called it the New Horizon EP, that's not really what we are talking about.)
monsieur fly
War Child
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I find the lyric debate interesting. I sympathise with Lazarus' views to an extent. I know BVS and others enjoy using the subjectivity argument and think themselves incredibly clever for it, but I still believe there is a case for saying that Bono peaked as a lyricist between Achtung Baby and Pop. That is not to say that every 90s lyric was a winner. Indeed one is likely to find a cliched line or two in every song. Overall, however, I think Bono wrote his most interesting, original lines in that era. I would point to songs like Lemon, Stay (Faraway So Close), Acrobat, So Cruel and Please as examples. These lyrics were tight, and harnessed fairly well to a theme. In my view, too many of his post-2000 efforts have lacked that discipline. That said, I think NLOTH was a big improvement on HTDAAB. I recall smiling to myself as I heard Bono compare his head to 'a lit cigarette' during Cedars of Lebanon. It had a precision about it that reminded me of his 90s work. The new efforts are a mixed bag lyrically. Glastonbury needs work- for a start the syntax is horrible-'mountains green' etc. But North Star and Every Breaking Wave are promising. Therefore, although Lazarus has a point, I am more optimistic than he is.
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