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Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:


I feel sickened by today's actions....I can almost guarantee history will not look favourably upon Bush and Mr Tory Blair...
It's unfortunate they can't see outside of the box...

What sort of action or non-action would you suggest we do?

CK



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2 GA's for 2 GC's!
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77
 
AINE:

Easter is important because of Christ.

And Christ said that we shouldn't use holy days as an excuse to not do good deeds (see Matthew 12, Mark 2, Mark 3). Specifically, look at Mark 3:1-4.

And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

And, you know, I would consider military action to stave off ethnic cleansing -- particularly the ethnic cleansing of people of a different faith committed by delusional Christians -- to be a very good thing, even if it was done on Easter.

Achtung Bubba

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 10-07-2001).]
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
And Martha, we should be careful in our alliances, but -- especially given how effective intelligence will almost require help from the shadows -- we should not be afraid of allying ourselves with questionable forces to wipe out the more evil enemy. Remember, we sided with the Soviets against the Nazis.

And I think you need to really think about what you're saying when you talk about the actions of the U.S. Government.

You're first of all ignoring the American military efforts in Kuwait, Somalia, and Yugoslavia -- all in the defense of Muslims. Like so many others, you're painting a false picture of the U.S. by ignoring our good actions.

Beyond that, you're ignoring the fact that these terrorists hate us regardless of what we do. We screw up, we're "The Great Satan". We try to help, we're "imperialists". And if we do nothing, we're uncaring. We can do nothin to please the people who attacked us.

More than that, by suggesting that the U.S. "set the wheels in motion", you're suggesting that the United States acted of its own free will and the terrorists who attacked us are mere cogs in a machine, that they had no choice but to kill six thousand Americans.

You are in fact blaming us for what happened, and that's bullshit.

Achtung Bubba

You have completely misunderstood what I said. I was talking about the fact that once again the people the US had once supplied with arms and money and power have turned out to be our enemies. This happens very often, but this time it resulted in thousands of deaths in our own country. I would like the President to keep this in mind after this present war is over. Just because people within Afganistan are against the Taliban, doesn't make them people to trust or support blindly. Remember that Bin Laden was once on the US payroll just because he was fighting the Soviet Union. And I haven't forgotten that we sided with the Soviets to fight the Nazis. That more than proves my point: War makes for short-sighted alliances that may come back to haunt you. Iraq, Bin Laden, etc.

Now, I'm going to write my paper for school. Settle down or you'll pop a blood vessel, and then when you go to your local recruiter to fight in this war you're so hot for, he won't take you.


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...a highway with no one on it, a treasure just to look upon it...

"The skeletal structure of your foot is not normal." -- my podiatrist 8-6-01
 
ladywiththespinninghead:

Actually, I think history will judge Bush and Blair very favorably, as a twenty-first century counterpart to FDR and Churchill.

One of the key reasons they will be well judged is that they don't care how history will judge them. They have shown that they are doing some very brave things in order to do the right thing.

Achtung Bubba
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
One of the key reasons they will be well judged is that they don't care how history will judge them.
Achtung Bubba
Please don't be so naive as to think that the ramifications of their actions with respect to their legacy does not affect every single move they make.
 
I may have misunderstood, Martha, and I apologize.

You're right, our enemy's enemy is not necessarily our friend, and we MUST be careful in what we do after this war. I just don't think that the risk of screwing up later should deter us from reacting now.

Achtung Bubba
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
I may have misunderstood, Martha, and I apologize.

You're right, our enemy's enemy is not necessarily our friend, and we MUST be careful in what we do after this war. I just don't think that the risk of screwing up later should deter us from reacting now.

Achtung Bubba

OK. Clear thought is a greater threat to evil than bombs. We'll keep thinking and practicing free speech Bubba.

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...a highway with no one on it, a treasure just to look upon it...

"The skeletal structure of your foot is not normal." -- my podiatrist 8-6-01
 
Don't mention Bosnia and Yugoslavia here as an example of US help to people in need. US did more harm in former Yougoslavia than good. US first enforced arms embargo to Croatia and Bosnia whil Serbia had the 3rd largest army in Europe, and when we didn't surrender and when it was obvious that Serbia will not win than you turned and in 1995 (4-5 yrs after the star of the war) you decided that you can help! come on...
 
MUG:

It's not naive. It's historically true that those who care most about their legacy (Clinton, as an example) do not achieve anything substantial. Those who care least about public opinion -- those that care most about doing the right thing -- achieve greatness as they pursue goodness.

Seriously, President Clinton cared more about public opinion than any other president in the modern age, and his response to terrorism was to immediately send a couple useless cruise missles "at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt".

Bush has shown a willingness to commit a large number of troops to a very long military campaign in the middle of an economic downturn. How is that possibly a politcally wise thing to do?!
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
MUG:

Bush has shown a willingness to commit a large number of troops to a very long military campaign in the middle of an economic downturn. How is that possibly a politcally wise thing to do?!

Was Bush "committing a large number of toops to a very long military campaign in the middle of economic downturn" prior to 9-11?

Don't mess with Clinton!!
wink.gif


CK



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I will give you 2 GA's for 2 GC's!! Email or IM me or respond to the multiple threads I have concerning this.
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77
 
Originally posted by martha:
OK. Clear thought is a greater threat to evil than bombs.

Amen.



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o lijepa
o draga
o slatka
slobodo
 
My point was, Marko, that the U.S. has done things out of completely humanitarian reasons. True, we enforced an arms embargo, but that was to ensure that the war didn't spill over into the rest of Europe. And we held out because we usually do not engage in wars without specific American interests. We cannot and should not engage in every war, and we should retain the right to protect our own interests.

And, once again, the terrorists hate us for who we are. NO ACTIONS can change their minds.

Achtung Bubba
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:

And, you know, I would consider military action to stave off ethnic cleansing -- particularly the ethnic cleansing of people of a different faith committed by delusional Christians -- to be a very good thing, even if it was done on Easter.
Achtung Bubba,
When Macedonians were fighting Albanians,were they doing the ethnic cleansing ?


[This message has been edited by Aine (edited 10-07-2001).]
 
Sory people bu I have to...

Anitram odakle si ti? Si gledao/la tekmu ju?er? frka panika, a sad sre?a i veselje. bok
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
True, we enforced an arms embargo, but that was to ensure that the war didn't spill over into the rest of Europe.


I've heard this said so many times, and I still disagree with it. Take the example of Srebrenica, where 8000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered in one day. Now suppose they had arms to protect themselves....How and why would they be a threat to the rest of Europe? They weren't filled with territorial greed or with some crazy expansionist plans. The only way this war kept spreading into other republics/countries is through Serbian aggression.


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o lijepa
o draga
o slatka
slobodo
 
I'm not saying that we did the right thing -- or that we even did the wrong thing for the right reasons -- concerning Yugoslavia.

We're not perfect, but not every U.S. action has been out of some imperialist motives -- and our actions certainly didn't justify the attacks on September 9th.
 
Bubba what I'm trying to say is that embargo was a way of empowering the serbs to ocupy (this is spelled wrong I'm sure) Croatia and Bosnia - so in order to reach some of your interest (and you are far away from europe) you were willing to sacrifice my country and Bosnia with it - and in the end war lasted for 5 years b/c we couldn't buy no arms (and we were no threat to eastern europe - we were not agressor, serbia was an agressor and they didn't need arms - they had suplies for 10-15 years). So tens of thousands of people (2000 children) died in my country alone, not to mention bosnia.
 
We are all in danger probably, unfortunately the terrorists revenge in usa and Uk could come back!
Don't you think u2 should cancel the tour?
I'm happy for them touring in usa, but probably these are not the best days!
Arenas are not so safe...you can't check 15.000 persons!
WHat do you think about that? The next 72 hours are very dangerous!
 
Originally posted by georgie:

Don't you think u2 should cancel the tour?

I don't believe they will unless something drastic happens over the next few weeks.

Maybe I'm still naive/crazy, but I still feel pretty safe going to a Canadian show. I'm not sure how people in the US feel about their safety, though.
 
Well, there are two types of attacks: military attacks and terrorist attacks.

The Taliban wasn't capable of a military reply BEFORE we bombed the hell out of them, so there's even less of a chance, they'll respond militarily.

And in terms of a terrorist response, that simply takes time, planning, and cooridination. If something happens in the next week, it would have been in planning for months.

In fact, I believe that the terrorists have several attacks already planned -- Septmember 11th wasn't the one and only attack. Attacking the infrastructure of the terrorists (their camps, bases, and factories) and the infrastructure of the Taliban regime that supports them is probably the BEST thing we could do to protect the U.S. and U.K., in so far as it disrupts and frustrates their efforts.

So, on with the show!

Achtung Bubba
 
Marko, I had that because that's my signature that I use.

I'm from Toronto, Canada, but I believe I talked to you one time after the Torino show.
smile.gif


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o lijepa
o draga
o slatka
slobodo
 
Why "no comments", Aine?

I'm going to two shows, including the first show Wednesday, and I'm not asking people to go to a show that I'm not willing to go to.

Besides, in these times, we need football, stand-up comedians, and rock n' roll.
 
See the problems here are just too comlicated to put this into a categorey of right and wrong. Let's not forget that the US originally gave the weapons to Afganastan (and that we even funded Olsalma Bin Ladin in the eighties when he was a "freedom fighter") that we have just felt it nessisary to blow up today. Thank god that we are acting with some restraint however, and only bombing the military instalations. But as hurt and scared as we all are in all this we must also look at it through the eyes of the innocents in Afganastan as well. I for one am sick of the sorrow.

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Please repeat the message, it's the music that we choose.
 
Ok this is no time for any bleeding hearts in here! We waited to see if the Taliban would meet the demands set out by Bush and they haven't delivered! Time now for the only language they will understand,after all this the regime that you may have seen on TV, of a football stadium public execution of what looks to me like a woman in blue on her knees with a machine gun held to the back of her head, this is the kind of regime that is so far in the dark ages that their citizens especially women have no rights whatsoever.Did the terrorists give America three weeks warning to meet their demands or they would attack? No they did not so don't give me this crap that we shouldn't be doing this, we gave them a chance and they refused it, everytime we try to solve something diplomaticaly the west gets shot in the back, thats the thanks we get for trying to help out! Yes I know the CIA trained Bin Laden but that was then, this is now,
So all you bleeding hearts out there,what would you do? keep talking and talking till you are blue in the face to try and resolve the problem while wave after wave of terrorist attacks happen across the world and aren't going to take the blind bit of notice of you?

EYE FOR A EYE,TOOTH FOR A TOOTH
 
Welcome to the forum, but no, in this case at least, it's not too complicated.

The U.S., the U.K., Germany, Australia, France, and the rest of the free world are the good guys.

Al Queda and the Taliban, and the other nations that harbor the terrorists are the bad guys.

And the good guys will win.

And "what a bomb", I agree that this is not the time for peace talks, but let's not get over-emotional. We want to extend the cold arm of justice, not the hot hand of vengeance.

Achtung Bubba
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
We want to extend the cold arm of justice, not the hot hand of vengeance.

Achtung Bubba

Very well said!

CK



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I will give you 2 GA's for 2 GC's!! Email or IM me or respond to the multiple threads I have concerning this. Help a desparate man out!!
Email:U2_Kennedy@yahoo.com
AIM: ckennedy77
 
Whatabomb I see you are jewish by religion...
In christianity we don't go by that ey for the eye... but terorists should be eliminated (IRA also..., and ETA), not only muslims.

Anitram: I thought that you are maybe croatian b/c that signature is from a poem by an old croatian poet from the town Dubrovnik. And that vers Bono recited in Verona?? when they sang ms sarajevo and one with pavaroti
 
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Why "no comments", Aine?
Because there's no point in it.
We're too different to understand each other, and one could predict it from the start. We'll disagree over everything but one
thing...though.




[This message has been edited by Aine (edited 10-07-2001).]
 
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