Earnie Shavers
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I'm not posting in this thread, Ozeeko is so bang on the same line as me it's not funny.
Isn't it funny how things change??? Hutdab.
- Thread starter cobl04
- Start date
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OP
OP
cobl04
45:33
See this I don't care about... if a song sounds good, then I don't care how cheesy or cliche it might be, I will still like it, eg Fix You.
Also this album is actually good but people on here don't get to see that because they're too busy comparing it with their past work. If you take it on its own, it's actually quite good.
Salome
you are what you is
I don't see what's intriguing about the mistakes of POP
- no vision (dance songs 1-3? no, regular U2 4-7, umm something different then? 8-9, and now to finish the album 10-12)
- demolishing a song like Staring at the Sun to such extremes that it took me until the ACOUSTIC (normally my least favourite bit of a U2 show) live version to figure out its potential
- If God .....
granted that the mistakes on How to dismantle ....... also are bad
Salome
you are what you is
it indeed does mean that they're better written songs
better structure etc
it doesn't mean it was more inspired musically, better lyrics etc
some of my favourite albums ever do not contain any songs i would mention as my favourite songs ever
so I don't think it's such an outlandish statement that How to dismantle ... contains their most well written songs while I rate in in the bottom 3 of U2's output
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
I disagree about all the unreleased songs, I prefer all the album songs to the unreleased stuff. The unreleased and alternative songs get so much hype because people want to point out the album's weaknesses. If the band chose the alternatives over the songs that eventually made it onto the album, we would have the same situation, just the other way around.
The only song I love and miss on the album is SMILE, which, IMO, is one of the best U2 songs in recent years. And yes, I love Fast Cars and I would have loved to have it as a regular track on the album, NOT the closer. Yahweh is the perfect album closer for me, Fast Cars coming after that is irritating as hell.
I think the album gets much more criticism than it deserves. For me, many of the songs feel really sincere, personal and heart-felt. Yes, there may be some stuff U2 could have done different, but all in all I say it's a great album, which is not exactly a popular opinion, but I'm also part of the minority here that does not think Achtung Baby is U2's best work.
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
C'mon, U2girl, you invite these type of responses.
For 10 of 11 albums you cannot find this consistent gripe among the thread of gripes. It does not exist. If you take in measure the whole of the criticisms of ATYCLB or POP, almost none include song selection. JT had some great leftovers, you might see alternative tracklistings but you don't see argument after argument that they made crucial mistakes. Achtung/Zooropa with the exception of 'Hold Me Kiss Me' have almost no real track selection gripes and even then THAT song was likely not finished until 94 or 95. And even then, that's one song.
Early on, they had some great B-sides and you can find opinions about songs here or there, 'sub one in for another' etc. but you simply cannot find a situation like HTDAAB where they fouled up on possibly (depending on opinion, of course) up to 5, 6? songs.
They scrapped an album. They were at odds with each other. "Unreleased ergo better" with respect to HTDAAB most likely puts you at odds with at least one or more band members. "Unreleased ergo better" is what Bono hints at when he says that a certan song is "the best B-side you ever heard". Why is that song on the preview disc if it one of the band members is not pushing for it? He wanted it on the album but he'll tell you the democratic version of events.
Why did Xanax get a make over? For fun? That's probably the company line, so I'm sure some will believe it. The truth is more likely pointing towards Bono saying something like "that's one of the best lyrics I've written in years, how can we not put it on the album?" and someone else saying "well, let's redo the music and see what happens". It ended up being playful and a bonus for some and a b-side for others. Otherwise, if it's a lost cause why even go back to it? SOMEONE was arguing for Xanax. They compromised and then they give the company democratic line to the public.
I love, love, love 'Smile' I wouldn't care if it were the lead single, a soundtrack song, a bootleg or just randomly released on the digi box set as it was. I love the song. Somebody else did too. If not then why spend that many hours and months and even years laboring over these songs, to start with 100 (whatever) and end up with 15. Just to pretend it's a clear cut decision? Get real.
Somebody is pushing for them. So "unreleased ergo better" could easily be a mindset held by any member of the band at any time depending on how much that liked the particular track. You shouldn't just discount these opinions with respect to what happened on HTDAAB.
We all have the benefit of hindsight. Agree or disagree, you can't (well, shouldn't at least) discount the argument based on a phenomenon that the creators themselves likely share.
OP
OP
cobl04
45:33
I don't see what's intriguing about the mistakes of POP
- no vision (dance songs 1-3? no, regular U2 4-7, umm something different then? 8-9, and now to finish the album 10-12)
- demolishing a song like Staring at the Sun to such extremes that it took me until the ACOUSTIC (normally my least favourite bit of a U2 show) live version to figure out its potential
- If God .....
granted that the mistakes on How to dismantle ....... also are bad
I love Pop and couldn't care less about a lack of 'vision'
Seriously, if I think the music sounds good, I'm not going to say "it's sounds awesome, but I don't like it because there's no vision."
I LOVE Smile, I think it's a fantastic song.
Saracene
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Though I do like HTDAAB, I think that the comment on lack of mystery is spot on. This album does have a strange sense of "plainness" that I don't get from any other U2 album.
Personally I don't get the love for "Smile", but then I never got the love for "Mercy" either. To me, both songs start promisingly and then just trail off into dullness.
doctorwho
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
What's funny is that I rate JT in the bottom 3 of U2's output. Most songs sound the same (blend right into each other) and the few that do sound different aren't very good (never liked the album version of "Bullet" and don't get me started on the utter crap that is "Trip..."). Yet, in 1987, I adored JT.
Here's the real kicker though - I still do adore JT.
Yep - in terms of U2's output, I consider it weak. In terms of overall musical output, I consider JT great.
Thanks to the internet, each new U2 album is hyped ridiculously - especially on sites like these where tidbits of information are found and then overanalyzed. But what's missing is the fact that U2 hyped their stuff then too - we just didn't have the 'net to over-interpret comments.
So Bono saying HTDAAB is their best collection of songs is indeed part hype. But even Bono stated that he feels it fails as an album. And this is where JT does shine - the fact that the songs flow together allows a more cohesive feel. "Bomb" feels a bit more disjointed. But would I say something horrendous like "Grace" being better than anything on "Bomb"? Never - "Grace" is a very weak song, especially compared to songs like "Vertigo", "City...", "Love & Peace" and even "Fast Cars". If "Bomb" lacks something, it's the fact that there isn't more oomph in some songs. Some tracks come close to being classics, yet for some reason, just never made it ("Sometimes..." leapes out, as does "All Because of You"). "Bomb" also is a bit too similar to ATYCLB, but thankfully, U2 does show growth with "Fast Cars" and "Love & Peace". In other words, I'd rate the two albums the same.
Overall, I have found weaknesses on all of U2's albums. However, I have also found utter brilliance - enough that keeps me excited and interested in each new release.
Salome
you are what you is
yes, but the music doesn't sound goodI love Pop and couldn't care less about a lack of 'vision'
Seriously, if I think the music sounds good, I'm not going to say "it's sounds awesome, but I don't like it because there's no vision."
it sounds muddled because they couldn't make up their mind
Salome
you are what you is
There have been songs mentioned that could have made the cut on album other than Bomb. It's just that it's stronger this time because for the first time band decided to release (so many) alternative versions after the release of the album. An uncharacteristical move that was supposed to achieve....what? To get the bonus on the digital U2 catalogue ? Smile and the other All that/Bomb era songs do that.
How many times have we heard 11 o clock tick tock was good enough for the album ? UF and especially JT B-sides get praised through the roof (even the band talked about making JT a double album). Hold me thrill me... and more recently, people wished Ground beneath her feet was on All that...
Out of the alternative versions of Bomb songs, several songs did end up on the album, so it was most likely the issue of arrangement and album length (specifically mentioned in Blender article). The "best B-side" may yet be released (I hope it does) - just not on an album like Bomb because it does not fit there any more than Fast cars does or any more than Ground beneath her feet fits on All that. Of course they need to make compromises - there are four people in the band. Bono was on record saying "we did Fast Cars on the last day of recording and it turned out so good we decided to put it on some versions of the album". Is the stuff we see in articles a heavy spin on the events in the studio? We don't know that.
I don't have any problems believing they collectively opposed having a 13 song, hour+ long album in 2004. The truth is they need to boil down everything to those 11 (in most of the cases) songs that will make the cut each time. I guess the popular version is evil Larry Mullen and/or Paul McGuiness bullying everyone for the past 8 yeras.
OP
OP
cobl04
45:33
i dont hear that though
each to their own
i just hope for the new album they get the sound levels right. PLEASE.
Varitek
Blue Crack Addict
I think this is well stated and I pretty much agree with it.
And again I have to say, to the defenders of HTDAAB/U2:
U2 is far and above my favorite band and I think most of their music is better than other music (duh). This means that I hold them to a really high standard, and I think it's perfectly fair to do so because they have the potential and have shown they can live up to it. I'm not making up a high standard out of thin air I'm basing it on their body of work. So if I criticize Hutdub or other U2 songs it's all relative to U2, not to the general world of modern music.
I think this is true to varying degrees for a lot of people, and because we are on a U2 board and like minded, we don't usually caveat our opinions to acknowledge this, it's a given. That's why you get people saying "Red Light is one of the only songs I actually dislike" - actually means in the context of all songs, whereas when I say I dislike New York it's in the context of U2 songs.
Varitek
Blue Crack Addict
Cut the quote cause it's long and you can now click the arrow thingy to go see it, but I wanted to say
to that post. I mostly agree, good points.
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Varitek
Blue Crack Addict
I agree that we've got a unique comparison with Bomb, and that maybe if we heard similar stuff from other albums we'd have similar criticisms. But even if I heard that stuff for Joshua Tree, and felt the same way about their creative decisions having cut some of the better stuff, I'd still firmly say JT is better than Bomb. So the Unreleased give us a way to criticize Bomb but ultimately it's Bomb that we're criticizing.
The mid 80s b-sides are incredibly strong, but so are the songs. They could have released a double album or another album, it's true. I think most of the mid 80s b-sides are far superior to the Bomb a-sides and b-sides. So you don't hear people complaining as much (TTYW excepted) about the mid-80s choices because the final products were so incredible.
Dr. Lemonseed
The Fly
So basically here's the deal:
HUTDAB has no subtleties. The music has no unity and is based on powerchords. The drum and bass parts are blocky (chord-->chord-->chord) with no motion.
OOTS is definitely strongest song on the track. Bono said this himself.
Interestingly, as time goes on, I find ATYCLB very inspired and redeeming. I think it aged well and I keep getting more out of it. It feels like they didn't have to struggle to write it. HUTDAB feels like it was a painful uninspired writing process. This is not to say the songs aren't "good," but I attribute that to their expertise at songwriting and not as stemming from anything inspired.
I think there are some redeeming qualities, but in lack subtlety, I think it misses the bar of previous albums.
HUTDAB has no subtleties. The music has no unity and is based on powerchords. The drum and bass parts are blocky (chord-->chord-->chord) with no motion.
OOTS is definitely strongest song on the track. Bono said this himself.
Interestingly, as time goes on, I find ATYCLB very inspired and redeeming. I think it aged well and I keep getting more out of it. It feels like they didn't have to struggle to write it. HUTDAB feels like it was a painful uninspired writing process. This is not to say the songs aren't "good," but I attribute that to their expertise at songwriting and not as stemming from anything inspired.
I think there are some redeeming qualities, but in lack subtlety, I think it misses the bar of previous albums.
OP
OP
cobl04
45:33
^ See while I agree I prefer attyclub to hutdab, i would defintely not go that far in my criticism of the bomb.
new.album.
new.album.
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